Renault on 20/10/2023 at 15:43
I'm surprised there hasn't been more activity lately, I thought Israel would move right in with their ground troops once they were assembled. But at this point, I'm guessing the current conflict will end when Hamas hands over the hostages in exchange for some kind of truce. I mean, Israel won't just invade ruthlessly, and just completely sacrifice all the hostages, will they? Maybe they will, but if it comes to that, it might be the end of Hamas and the Gaza Strip as a whole. Doesn't seem like there are a lot of options here that turn out even remotely positive.
Tocky on 20/10/2023 at 15:46
(at MX) The operation failed because of bad weather and mishandling of chopper spacing. The only real mishandling by leaders was in not having a backup set ready to go and launching it. Weakness did not factor into it because Carter showed he would act. That is not weakness. Iran's new leaders resented Carter for his support of the Shah as every previous president had but that does not mean they did not fear him. It would never be wise to not fear the US. What you call escalation I call response. It's good to know we will. However the middle east acts it has an element of self destruction about it, and though that must be taken into account, failing to respond is the only real show of weakness. I sound much more hawkish than I am but really it's just deterrence.
I prefer our military leaders where they are but understand they do not make bad leaders because they usually take into account those under them. Failure in some objectives is inevitable. Few seem to take into account our successes. Vote how you want. I see it coming down to two and will support the lesser of evils this time. The greater of evils is too scary a prospect.
mxleader on 20/10/2023 at 16:37
Quote Posted by Brethren
I'm surprised there hasn't been more activity lately, I thought Israel would move right in with their ground troops once they were assembled.
Maybe they don't want to escalate things as they might lose hostages but they may be waiting for more support from the US to arrive in the area.
Quote Posted by Tocky
I prefer our military leaders where they are but understand they do not make bad leaders because they usually take into account those under them. Failure in some objectives is inevitable. Few seem to take into account our successes. Vote how you want. I see it coming down to two and will support the lesser of evils this time. The greater of evils is too scary a prospect.
I don't think Biden can physically make it for that second term even if he was elected again. Also, Trump has the potential still to make it onto the ballot if he doesn't end up in Federal prison by election day. The way I see the next election going, if Biden can still function by then, is that will be Biden against some other Republican and some Libertarian. Biden would likely win because he's the incumbent and also a fair amount of Republicans might likely throw away their vote on someone other than Trump. All the rest was garbage.
A couple of sidenotes:
Ain al-Asad air base in Iraq was just attached by drones and rockets. Looks like things are warming up there again because of the Israel/Palestine conflict.
And I finally figured out how to use the multi-quote system on this forum.
Starker on 20/10/2023 at 21:19
Quote Posted by Qooper
Of course we can criticise Israel's policies toward Palestinians. You can even go to Israel and openly criticise Israel there, it's a democratic country. But if you go to Gaza and protest against Hamas, your head will end up on YouTube.
Hamas is an autocratic quasi-governmental quasi-terrorist organisation who killed members of Fatah, their political rivals, as they took power by force. Of course it doesn't compare to the Israeli government, as right wing as it is and as much it has been undermining its own democratic principles as of late. However, this doesn't mean that there isn't persecution of people who are critical of Israel's policies: (
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-cracks-down-on-critics-of-gaza-war/)
Quote Posted by Qooper
Anyways, what exactly is your point, or what did you want to make my post sound like? Please be direct as I have been.
My point is that if you add a quote directly below a video, you cannot expect people to then not link it to the video. You should add some phrase like "In any case..." if you really want to add an after thought. But you don't even need to do that. I think it was very clear from your very first post where your sympathies lie. And in any case, I don't think there are many people here in the thread who don't support the Israeli people caught up in the violence.
However, just saying "I stand with Israel" is unclear. If you hadn't clarified that this simply meant you were rooting for the continued existence of the state of Israel and nothing more, I would never have guessed that this was what you meant by it. I thought it just meant you were supporting Israel's policies, that you were taking Israel's side in that sense.
Qooper on 20/10/2023 at 21:33
Quote Posted by Starker
My point is that if you add a quote directly below a video, you cannot expect people to then not link it to the video. You should add some phrase like "In any case..." if you really want to add an after thought. But you don't even need to do that. I think it was very clear from your very first post where your sympathies lie. And in any case, I don't think there are many people here in the thread who don't support the Israeli people caught up in the violence.
However, just saying "I stand with Israel" is unclear. If you hadn't clarified that this simply meant you were rooting for the continued existence of the state of Israel and nothing more, I would never have guessed that this was what you meant by it. I thought it just meant you were supporting Israel's policies, that you were taking Israel's side in that sense.
Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't realize how it came across. I've made the clarification you suggested.
Starker on 20/10/2023 at 21:38
It's fine, I'm not attacking you or anything, just to make sure my intentions are clear. In fact, you are far more nuanced in your support of Israel than the vast majority of people I've seen in the past week.
SD on 20/10/2023 at 22:27
"I stand with Israel" has never, to my knowledge, meant you uncritically support everything Israel does, any more than "I love New York" after 9/11 meant you were a Rudy Giuliani or Dubya fanboy.
Indeed, many of us stand with Israel in spite of their excesses, because the alternative is genocide of a people who have endured more genocide than is humanly conceivable.
Starker on 20/10/2023 at 23:23
I mean, if you would post a video praising the stop and frisk policy and then added "I love New York", it would be very hard to interpret the statement as not being supportive of the policy, regardless of what the message initially meant of what it started to mean instead after 9/11.
mxleader on 21/10/2023 at 00:33
Israel isn't exactly innocent in the whole mess. They didn't start the recent hostilities but Israel is living high on the hog with western defense dollars and equipment and they've boxed Palestine in. And Palestine isn't exactly welcoming to any Jewish people. It's a complicated political and religious situation that is not easy to understand either side's motives. What is probably more clear is that there is outside influence both from the West and Middle East countries that fuels the fires. The point of fueling those fire often baffles me though.
