SD on 14/10/2023 at 20:20
Quote Posted by RippedPhreak
No one ever remembers that Arab Muslims colonized Palestine in the year 638 via military force. Are they colonizers/oppressors too?
Muslims are unquestionably the major historical colonising force in the region. It's why whole swathes of the Middle East and North Africa speak a language that is native to the Arabian peninsula.
The irony is that Israel is the most successful decolonisation project in history.
The problem with the "Israel's oppressive behaviour is responsible for all the violence" narrative is that it can't possibly explain the scores of massacres before 1947, when Israel didn't exist. Did the Arabs have a crystal ball?
Aja on 14/10/2023 at 21:46
The other problem is that no one here is actually pushing that narrative.
mxleader on 15/10/2023 at 10:12
I've been listening to a number of interviews of random people on the streets of Palestine and Israel and I can't help but feel like their emotions are not genuine. It could be from translating their words from their native language to English makes it difficult effect emotion in the same way a native English speaker would. Then there is the obvious fake emotion from politicians and news anchors. I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but what I'm hearing on NPR sounds a lot like when AI tries to sound genuine but can't quite figure it out. What the hell is going on?
R Soul on 15/10/2023 at 12:10
Hamas has a very tight grip on what it's captives can say, so in public people will claim to support their oppressors. In private it's different; people are sick of the corruption and oppression.
A lot of people have supported a Two State situation, but a Palestinian state would explicitly want Israel and all Jewish people to be eradicated, so it's not going to work. After 1948 the displaced Palestinians should have been given sanctuary by the other Arab countries (similar things have happened with other displaced peoples), but that would have required them to accept that Israel existed and would have deprived them of an oppressed Muslim group whose plight could be exploited.
I think a One State solution is needed. The Gaza Strip becomes a full part of Israel, no political autonomy because it hasn't worked. Some new laws would be needed to clearly prohibit discrimination. Anyone continuing to shoot people or launch missiles etc can be treated as a murderer, as some people quite like being called terrorists. Some consistenly pushed rehtoric from the authorities will also be needed, along the lines of "the situation has been awful for a long time, but if we have a go at stopping the violence we might actually be able to get to a situation where most people are content".
Nicker on 15/10/2023 at 15:10
In Israel right now, if you aren't singing the national anthem from your balcony, along with your neighbours, you risk getting ostracised, berated or maybe a black eye. In Gaza, it's a bullet. Both sides are manufacturing patriotism but then that's how it's always done in wartime.
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Did the Arabs have a crystal ball?
No, just history books. You do know that inter-semitic violence has been a fixture of that region for millennia. It's even reflected in the myths, legends and fairy tales written there. You know, the various battling holy books of Abrahamism.
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In private it's different; people are sick of the corruption and oppression.
You are talking about Likud, Right? Silencing opposition. Convicted criminals in the Prime Minister's office. Destruction of the Supreme Court...
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but a Palestinian state would explicitly want Israel and all Jewish people to be eradicated
Unlike Likud.
The eradication of all Jews is just extreme rhetoric from the fascists in Palestine. The people of Palestine are not a monolithic ideology. Why would you suggest that they are?
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"the situation has been awful for a long time, but if we have a go at stopping the violence we might actually be able to get to a situation where most people are content".
Why can that only happen after Palestine is eradicated?
Nicker on 15/10/2023 at 15:19
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I think a One State solution is needed.
A one state solution is impossible. It would require the eradication of one side or the other, which 4,000 years of trying has failed to accomplish.
IMHO, it is one state too many. I think a no-state solution is best. Unleash the global supply of nukes in concentric rings, centered on Jerusalem. Kids, if you can't share it nobody gets it.
Thor on 15/10/2023 at 16:26
Hama hammaaa
I find both sides very shit so they can destroy each other as they please. Of course killing civilians is always wrong though, except when 'muricans do it (which it seems they don't for a change), then it's gucci.
sysyphus on 15/10/2023 at 16:54
thor's figured it out, they can destroy each other as long as they don't kill civilians unless America gets blood lusty as they do except when they don't. 'nuff said.
Tocky on 15/10/2023 at 21:58
Since we are down to giving out solutions which will never work as usual, here is mine. You will hate it. Everyone will hate it. But it might work. It's a two state solution with a twist. It will require a lot of building. Massive projects. Give the residents of Gaza an equivalent amount of land now in the hands of Israel to the east of Palestinian lands already bordering Jordan. Build them residences there. Whole cities like exist in Gaza and then move all of Gaza there. Israel takes over the Gazan lands. Those Israelis now displaced from those lands will each get equal land in Gaza.
They will hate that. Palestinians will hate that. But every Palestinian will be in one area then and not divided. The more reasonable Jordanian side ones will have a majority but also a calming effect of somewhat reasoning governance. Israel will lose a lot of fertile land. Those on that land will rage at the indignity of having to give it up in favor of life in Gaza. Those from Gaza will rage at having to move. Split Jerusalem. Have most of the Muslim holy sites in the north theirs. Have most of the holy sites of Jews in the south theirs. Palestinians now have a state north of Israel.
Now comes the most expensive part of all. Build an impregnable wall. No traffic either way. Difficult to breach. Iron dome setup. Scores of drones to survey and a no go kill zone of five miles. Turrets and patrols atop the wall much like a great wall of China. Total separation. Any country sending weapons to Palestine gets bombed. Warned about it first but then bombed. Everybody hears and knows these terms. They can't live together. So live apart forever. No attacking. Attacker gets twice as bad back. Not unlike the way it is now. But importation of missiles from those countries that supply them that get shot over the border gets an equal amount back. Right on their capitol. Enforced by the US. No excuses.
Never work but it's my dream.
RippedPhreak on 15/10/2023 at 22:03
Within a month, Iran will be sending crates of weapons into the new area marked "Property of Saudi Arabia Government" (or of whoever Iran is mad at these days). Other than that, sounds half decent.
