Qooper on 12/10/2023 at 11:55
Why on earth is there no separate thread for this yet?
Anyways, I'm sure you've all heard. Five days ago on the 7th of October Hamas attacked Israel and deliberately targeted unarmed civilians, kids, butchered many and took 150 as hostage. Israel's response has been swift, they've targeted buildings in Gaza. Hamas fires rockets from civilian buildings, which is a barbaric tactic they are known for. Jake Broe did an update on the topic, also covering Russia's responses, thought I'd share it here:
[video=youtube;BAJVeDKTVRI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJVeDKTVRI[/video]
PigLick on 12/10/2023 at 13:00
I think that most people here are sickened and appalled by these events and would rather not discuss it too much. The thread would most likely end up in flames anyway.
Nicker on 12/10/2023 at 13:04
I almost started this thread days ago with the condition that if the mods thought it might be as divisive and fruitless as gun/reproductive rights threads, to delete it immediately.
First off, no acts of terrorism are justified. What Hamas did and is doing is inexcusable. Hamas must know that however successful a single tactical operation is, the result would be a disproportionate and deadly response from Israel. They know that they cannot ever defeat Israel by force, only bring more misery and suffering to their own people. They know that such acts cannot possible buy the sympathy of the west for the suffering of the Palestinian people. It can drive sympathy towards Israel and suppress voices of moderation. It can only prolong and intensify that suffering.
Secondly, Benjamin Netenyahu and his cronies bear equal responsibility for this bloodshed and murder, along side Hamas. Netenyahu's provocative policies and prolonged actions against Palestinians, have manufactured the conditions in which such hatred thrives. It has also caused as many or more innocent casualties, albeit in less noticeable dribs and drabs. His criminal suppression of reasonable political voices in his own country and in Gaza, was intended to create a false dilemma (us or them). Permitting this attack to occur was calculated to drive frightened people into his murderous cause.
The tactical success of this attack suggests several possibilities, some of which I likely have not even considered but hand me the can opener and the tinfoil. 1 - Hamas got lucky. 2- Hamas achieved an unprecedented infiltration of Israeli military intelligence. 3 - Netenyahu knew that a big attack was coming (Egypt warned him) but calculated that the sacrifice of a few innocents would serve his political ends. He might have been surprised at the number of casualties and the savagery of Hamas but hey, eggs must be cracked. And he's not bearing the personal risk, only the political benefits, so cheers all around, right Benni?
In short: The fascists on both sides are soaking their hands in the same pool of human blood and for the same stupid, cynical reasons.
PS: Religion poisons everything. Belief in the afterlife is the single most destructive human invention ever.
Nicker on 12/10/2023 at 13:06
Sorry, PigLick. I nipped in there.
Mods. Do what you must.
heywood on 12/10/2023 at 13:20
It's not just here, nobody I know is talking about it. Perhaps we're running out of sympathy for both sides. I certainly have.
Qooper on 12/10/2023 at 13:21
Quote Posted by Nicker
I almost started this thread days ago with the condition that if the mods thought it might be as divisive and fruitless as gun/reproductive rights threads, to delete it immediately.
Hmm, maybe. It's up to the mods.
EDIT: I don't think it's justified to consider the situation symmetric. For example there was a Hamas rally in Sydney where the Hamas supporters chanted "gas the jews". I just don't see Israel supporters behaving this way.
Quote:
PS: Religion poisons everything. Belief in the afterlife is the single most destructive human invention ever.
I hear this a lot. It is a truth-claim in itself, and in my opinion an over-simplifying one at that. I'd like to dissect the claim a bit, but not in this thread. I did have that one thread some time ago for the purpose of having a respectful exchange of ideas and thoughts, but it did turn into a bit of a tit for tat.
WingedKagouti on 12/10/2023 at 13:27
Quote Posted by Nicker
In short: The fascists on both sides are soaking their hands in the same pool of human blood and for the same stupid, cynical reasons.
And they've been enabled by support from various international players, most notably the US has always pused against sanctioning Israel for taking Palestinian territory while Iran has been supporting Hamas. The Israel/Palestine conflict is one of the major reasons why the Middle East is so unstable and also a rallying point (but certainly not the only one) for terrorist groups from the region against the Western nations.
I don't have a solution for the situation, but I do not believe that the current paths taken by the involved parties are right. Then again, it's very easy to condemn the actions of others when they're far away and you're in a safe position.
heywood on 12/10/2023 at 13:53
I'm not convinced religion caused this conflict, but religion is what brings the world's attention to it and creates those allegiances. Without the unique religious element of it, we'd be paying about as much attention as we did to the Sri Lankan civil war.
Azaran on 12/10/2023 at 14:22
Humans love taking sides on an issue, because half of our brains are irrational, and emotional, as much as we may think we're being objective. Once an inflexible position is taken, anything opposing the other side can be rationalized.
- Palestine is being bombed to oblivion? Too bad, Israel has to defend itself
- Terrorists massacred innocent Israelis? Yeah well, Israel shouldn't have been oppressing Palestine in the first placeQuote Posted by Qooper
EDIT: I don't think it's justified to consider the situation symmetric. For example there was a Hamas rally in Sydney where the Hamas supporters chanted "gas the jews". I just don't see Israel supporters behaving this way.
The irony too is western self-proclaimed antifascists defending religious fascists, who murder innocent people, and oppress women. Imagine that..
When the Charlie Hebdo massacre took place, I remember many blaming the victims because
you're not supposed to mock certain beliefs, so they had it coming.
The same people who go into a blind rage and sometimes start riots over what X bad politician said or posted. Then deliberately ignore or rationalize actual atrocities that happen every day