Shadowbob on 16/6/2002 at 17:31
You definately have a point - a lot of your criticism about combat/play balance is insightful. I was rude to make such a silly comment about "final thought".
Forsythe on 17/6/2002 at 00:05
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuco I think you'll agree with me, Forsythe, that the leveling system, because it's dependent on skill progression, gives the lead to those who are more willing to break down and do repititive(someone correct this word's spelling) actions... IE: going around, talking to NPCs, and admiring them.*wry grin* Yeah, I did get tired of that... so much so that (after ~8th lvl) I decided to skip the levelling system and cheated my stats/skills up. I get bored of repetitive hack-n-slash-your-way-to-levels systems; probably why I liked Torment so much.
Quote:
BTW, tell me if you find anything 'interesting' in the average hobo's talking... IE: my soon to be wife, and the secret underwater city she's supposed to tell me about. Hrm... I've found that doing a quick poll of rumors in each town
generally nets you a different set of rumors and tasks (telling you to kill the mage outside Dagon Fel, rogue Telvanni camps to wipe out, etc). Or did I miss your point on this one?
Tuco on 17/6/2002 at 07:49
Repetitive sounds smarter when you say it...
I just want to find my promised underwater city, and my wife is my only lead =(
Exodus_dk on 17/6/2002 at 10:59
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuco Repetitive sounds smarter when you say it...
I just want to find my promised underwater city, and my wife is my only lead =( And your dragon..... no?
Were you ill while typing this - or ?
Tuco on 17/6/2002 at 14:11
Well, sorta, it was 4am and I had just been playing EQ for some 20hours... =D
DRAGONS! they don't exist... I know... but my wife! She might exist.
aardvark on 17/6/2002 at 18:54
Level-based rpg systems have been with us since 1979 or so. Most crpg's are based on the D&D system, whether they like to admit it or not. From Wizardry to Everquest you see basically the same core gameplay/rules: "leveling up" by killing, hit points, armor class, ability scores, damage based on dice - D4+2, 2D6+2, D8+1, etc. (Why base damage on dice in a computer game?), class-based professions, charisma/comeliness/personality stats (that take the place of real NPC interaction in crpg's), a prefab magic system, and on and on.
Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson invented this rules system, and I bet they've never received a dime from all of the rip-off crpg's since.
Hey, there are other rpg rules systems; other ways to play an rpg. But you really have to be a paper rpg player to see the variety. (Deadlands, Call of Cthulhu, Vampire, etc.) Thankfully, a few companies, like Looking Glass and Bethesda, sought/seek to avoid the cliches. Traces of D&D are to be found in their games, but their innovations, in terms of where crpg's are at, speak for themselves.
Leveling up is based on the idea of Frodo in LoTR. The hobbits in the adventure begin as naive bumpkins. By the end of the story they have become competent adventurers with a range of survival and combat skills, and a loremaster's understanding of Middle Earth.
This is classic character development in an adventure story. Even the Luke Skywalker character evolves in this way. So, this is one appropriate approach to structuring the rules for a fantasy role playing game. (And remember: Star Wars is not a science fiction movie, although it looks like one. It's a fantasy adventure story!)
One approach....But there are dozens of great rpg rules sets out there to enjoy, and believe it or not most of them don't operate like Dungeons & Dragons.
The time scale in crpg's is often nonsensical. Your character goes from dweeb to Superman in a matter of days (or weeks, depending on the game). Is this logical? Well, that's a matter for the designer to decide, and these are fantasy games, after all....
The whole idea of "levels" is also not appropriate for many kinds of adventure stories and most heroes. If you play a character like Indy Jones or Garrett, you don't want to play them from level 1, and it doesn't make much sense to do so anyway. Conan was just pushing the wheel when he was level 1, so there's no adventure there. ;)
I look forward to the day when folks accept that games like Thief: The Dark Project are actually rpg's! :) Man, that game was sooooo ahead of its time, and in so many ways.
mutthead on 17/6/2002 at 18:55
I think Tuco has some really good points about Morrowind. No reason to try to talk him "into" liking the game. He's played it and he dislikes it and nothing will change that.
I do feel that Tuco may be jumping to conclusions about gameplay. I am playing 4 different characters and, yes, they all follow a somewhat linear (albeit many-pronged) path, however the real thrill is that I can stumble upon a murdered corpse and spend 2 days just trying to solve the mystery and back track and forward track and sidetrack THEN get back to my main quest.
Have you tried playing with an Orc? Or tried playing as a Dunmer? Each game is different and feels different, even though the actions and quests are the same. What aboutis joining as many factions, cults, and guilds as possible and then having to test your own loyalty when life or death decisions must be made. That is pretty unique, at least to any game I've ever played: to have to decide someone's fate based solely on whether you feel more pride as a thief or a warrior, etc. You gotta admit that is pretty cool...
This is not just a roleplaying game, but a simulation. A simulation of a different world, esp. if you have the PC version and the editor. If slash and bash is your thing... that's cool, but don;t knock a game solely because it isn't your style. If that's the case Tuco could have summed this entire thread up in one post:
"Don't like RPG's, never will, hated Morrowind."
End of thread.
-MH
Exodus_dk on 17/6/2002 at 19:30
well - Tuco is ALWAYS jumping - up and down, with clenched fists, tears starting to break in the corner of his eyes... all just because the EVIL developers at Bethesda Softworks said: >8-D
"Hey - you know what, we should REALLY piss this guy off... Hmmm, but how to do it? Yeah why not just leave the dragons out? -Hey yeah that would be cool... no dragons! Hey - and what more, no dragons - if we call the dungeons caverns and so... I guess nobody will think we got any fantasy inspiration from that D&D game everybodys rambling on about!"
However - it's nice to see that the girls still get to him... You in love Tuco? Or are you just trying to deny your dragon-disability? Hope you'll get better :P
As for roleplaying game - I still fancy the Quest for Glory series from Sierra some of the best CRPG's ever! However it's very hard to make a RPG for non-roleplayers without making a level-based system. People just NEED to compare against eachother - most of them anyways.
Kilana on 17/6/2002 at 23:57
How about instead of a mod to make dragons, we need a mod with more jewelry!... I want to wear a tiarra... :D
Forsythe on 18/6/2002 at 00:15
One of the Ashkhans had on a hat that looked suspiciously like a tiara; my char would've died instantly if he'd laughed half as much as I did at the sight ;)
