Zaphod on 7/6/2002 at 16:25
I'm on about page 2 of the "Face It" thread. Never would have found it because the Official Forums are filled with trolls and warez kiddies and there's 238 new threads a day and it's a big messy mess.
My thing about this game is, yes, the combat is easy. Ok? We can all admit it. They made the combat too easy. Boo hoo. If you want to play a game with crazy heavy combat, go play Serious Sam. (I think the Paralyze spells/weapons really contribute to this lack of balance. When you're typically only facing one enemy at a time and you can easily make it so they NEVER have a chance to strike you, the fight's pretty much over before it began).
But I don't think this game is about combat. I think RPGs are more interactive adventure games. And that's the approach I took. This game, for me, is like a great adventure game (King's Quest, Longest Journey), except that I can almost completely interact with the world. Which, I guess, is why the combat problems seem so peripheral to me.
And, I think the designers truly did try to make the game as open as possible, so that different people could play different ways. Of course every single one of those "ways" will be limited, because there's so many of them. For instance, I'd never venture into a tomb or dungeon unless it was part of a quest. It doesn't interest me. I spent about 4 days in Vivcc, just talking to everyone, doing their little jobs, getting a flavor of this (architecturaly hideous yet) massive city. Ditto Balmora, Sadith Mora and Ald'Ruhn. That's how I want to play it. Others want to dungeon-crawl. Still others want to quest in the hinterlands. There's something for everyone. By definition, though, each of those options will be more limited than if the game was solely an Adventure game, or a Dungeon Crawler, or a Mission-based Quest game. It HAS to be. Otherwise, the game would be 10 years in development.
I've played this game for about a month now. Haven't played in several days, and I probably won't until next week. But, I have no intention of "finishing" or "solving" the game any time soon - I'm having too much fun exploring the world they built for me.
If you're very goal-oriented, then yes, this game is very easy to "finish." But, that's obviously NOT what they had in mind when they made it.
{EDIT} I'm just gonna edit this a little: Yes, the game has problems. Yes, it might keep it from being one of the "best ever." But, I tend to like anything (movies, music, games) that is completely outrageous in scope and yet fall a little short more than ones that aim low but hit their target dead-on. I've never seen a game try to be as wide yet deep as Morrowind.
And, something that someone said in the "Face It" post kinda stuck with me: maybe I just suck at games. I have a Khajjit with a 98 short sword and 89 light armor, enchanted weapons and full glass armor, and I still get whooped by Daedra and rogue mages on a regular basis. Do I just suck? Is everyone that's complaining simply MUCH better than I am at combat? (This isn't rhetorical, it's a distinct possibility).
The character probably shouldn't have access to the higher-order weapons and armor (daedric, ebony) until later in the game. HOWEVER, that would compromised the "open-endedness" by imposing linear restrictions. And I think that was the overriding principle the designers were working from. That said, the main quest should have been more... obtuse, required more deductions on the player's part, rather than just "go here, go there."
You might say that the game is too easy, but I simply can't imagine anyone saying that this game isn't fun. And...well... that's what we're ultimately paying the game to do... entertain.
Chapino on 7/6/2002 at 21:16
Rpg's I've deemed classic in my 16 years of life:
Suikoden 1&2: I loved this game for the sheer amount of stuff you can do, every charachter (and theirs a lot), has personality and is customizable in combat so many ways, and the amount of small special events and mini games always keeps these games in my playstation as a pir of the best rpg's of all time.
"Graphics... I can live with good sprites"
Baldurs Gate 2: I love this game, their is a load of things to do, charachter development is great, and th story is the best rivaled only by maybe FFT's plot which I think was the best of all time. Baldurs Gate 2 opened me up alsoto pencil and paper rpg's and every class and race have a big effect on the games flow, but getting away with murder is a damn hard task killing innocents.
"Wipe Out the Tavern... sure why not"
Final Fantasy Tactics: My favorite charachter development system to date, it was great, and the plot was too, I beat the game quickly, but evertime the game feels differen, and I have beaten it at least 20x. Now in this game really had battle that mad any strategy a good and bad choice, and batte sort of made you get attach to even the most useless charachter, it's a definitive classic.
"Daravon is putting me to sleep"
Morrowind: Now that you know y other classic, Morrowind dwarfs them all here's why?
Difficulty: how hard is the game is totally up to the player, I mean it takes some self-disipline to have good challenge thorgh, but that's how it should be, most people cheat anyways so let them enjoy too, while the realy player restrain themselves to only the bare bones equipment in a decent sized dungeon or swim a dangeous ocean with iron armor...
Depth: Yeah the NPC's can be redundant, but it's not that bad, I mean the have enough personality to enjoy killing them (unless I can sell stuff t them, then they may live a lil' longer). All the differnent ways of making of personalizing ou charachte is plenty, and their n restictions, so sky's the limit, that does hurt the feel of personalization, but the gains outweigh the loss.
Shelf-Life: This saved the community a lotf time of figuring out how to edit the game themselves (i.e. BG2 which I ejoy toying with), plus it has all the tools to make new epics, and essence it really is more the editor your buiying than the game, but it's still a reat game comad to many.
aardvark on 8/6/2002 at 04:51
I don't even pretend to understand rpg's like the Final Fantasy series. ;) I did like Chrono Trigger tho'....
Also, I prefer the 1st person point of view. I can't become involved or immersed while watching my character do things in 3rd person. It's too puppet-like. I'm not fond of the isometric pov either.
So Morrowwind is cool. 3rd person for the folks that need that. 1st person for people like me who want that "you are there" experience.
Another point: You can't build your own house, or dungeon, or entire island, with Baldur's Gate. ;)
aardvark on 8/6/2002 at 05:12
PC RPG Classics:
Wizardry series
Ultima series
Ultima Underworld series
Wasteland
The Magic Candle series
Dungeon Crawl
Pool of Radiance (the original version)
The Elder Scrolls series
System Shock series
DragonRealms
NetHack
Betrayal at Krondor
Darklands
You can have your Diablos, Bard's Tales, Might & Magics and Baldur's Gates. This list is the real deal, folks. Trust me. ;)
(And don't remind me of Dungeon Master. ;) I appreciate the game, but I don't consider it a classic. My opinion. Feel free to differ. With regards to games like Everquest or Dark Ages of Camelot, all I can say is that once you've played DragonRealms, if you can deal with the fact that it is a text MUD [with an incredible combat system], you won't be satisfied with such minimalistic mmorpg experiences.)
Vigo on 8/6/2002 at 05:52
Personally, I agree that the combat and balance of Morrowind could be worked on, but I think the main flaws in the game are it's inability to convey the depth of the game world, and the blandness of it's presentation.
While I'll admit that the overall history of Tamriel is interesting to read, I really don't think the complexities and intrigue of the various factions is related to the Player all that well. While trying to spark my interest in one of the 3 houses by talking to various people, I felt that I was never given and idea about the depth of the factions.
"House Redoran are the honorable knights of Dunmer" the people would say, and that would be the best description I would ever get, even from the members of Redoran themselves.
You never see people interact with eachother, making the towns feel bland as people stand their ground, waiting until you have need of them. Talking with NPC's always feels like a questionnaire, with no options for conversation. I think it would really have been cool to have a debate with some local about the various intricacies, advantages, and drawbacks of Dunmer politics and culture. Games like Torment gave you a really good idea of how the world ticked by providing good conversation trees with the people that inhabited it.
In the end, I think it comes down to a matter quantity over quality. While it was nice to walk around and explore the huge for a while, the joy of exploration becomes dull when you realize that next city you go to will be a lot like the last.
Tuco on 8/6/2002 at 06:00
Those books were a pain in the ass... If I wanted to read, I'd would've read a book, not got a game...
Tuco not read, tuco slash and bash.
Zaphod on 8/6/2002 at 13:46
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuco Those books were a pain in the ass... If I wanted to read, I'd would've read a book, not got a game...Good thing you probably weren't alive in the day of text-based adventure games.
I thought the books were one of best parts of the game. It added such a
huge backstory to the game, and many of them were really interesting.
aschueler on 9/6/2002 at 04:11
I agree with Zaphod...the best part of any RPG is story. The best part of action games is the action, the best part of RTS is strategy.
Well, RPG best stuff is story plus character development, but character development is an integral part of the story. The stuff I loved about the game (finished it tonight, plan on STILL PLAYING! neat concept, that) was the complete immersion it developed as you went through and the story slowly developed, twisted, and progressed.
All of the side quests, all of the totally optional areas, the Daedra shrines under Vivec I sword I would come back to and whup ass (haven't yet, didn't have to) all add to story interestingly enough through their redundancy. At first, I was really bored with all the books laying around -- did I NEED to read them? The answer is no, but as I got involved in the plot, I WANTED to read them as they are surprisingly well written and integrated into the game.
Tuco on 9/6/2002 at 06:48
Bleh @ text adventure games. THAT'S how I got sick of reading worthless, unnecesary crapola.
Now when I play these roleplaying games, I just skim through ALL the text. I can't be arsed to read all that... hmm, I just said that in my last post, the one with the poll =(
Shadowbob on 10/6/2002 at 22:19
I don't like Tuco... If he has such a negative opinion about the game, why does he waste his time complaining about it on the threads? You don't see me whining about Return to Castle Wolfenstein, (or Serious Sam, for that matter) on their threads... (if they even have them).
