Scots Taffer on 19/3/2009 at 01:17

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I never suggested it was despicable merely unattainable.

You seem to have a fair amount of passion for this subject so I'm going to assume you're living in Ireland or are heavily involved in it by association, I'll give you a little bit of backstory about myself and why I've come to the decision I have regarding Ireland's current predicament.

I grew up in "the least Scottish town in Scotland", generations of Irish immigrants flocked to my town over a century ago and my heritage is more or less entirely Irish*. I grew up in a climate of extreme sectarianism, though it was somewhat waning compared to the violence and bigotry of the 70s it was still in full force in pockets. So I understand that hatred and how irrational it is on both sides of the fence.

In Scotland it has slowly been eroded over time but that won't stop regular fights breaking out every Celtic vs Rangers match although to be honest that's more socioeconomic than religious nowadays.

I don't know what it must have been like to have been fiercely loyalist or fiercely republican back in the bloody Sunday days, or how it feels today, although I can extrapolate from my own experiences that it must be a very tense environment, and I know - sorry, feel - that so much shared hate, bloodshed, animosity, bigotry and prejudice cannot easily be overcome.

Recognising that this struggle isn't religious in nature, that segregation still plays a massive part in how both sides look at each other and even if we could somehow get over the Crown's claim to the chunk of land they've held for however long, there'd still be these troubling social issues to face.

So rather than have my justify why a United Ireland wouldn't work, I'd be interested to hear in what ways a United Ireland would clearly work and how the barriers would be overcome and what would motivate either side to come to a peaceful solution to the whole problem. I do believe the burden of proof for considerable assertions is on you in this case.

sh0ck3r on 19/3/2009 at 04:22

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I trust you realize I never attributed a United Ireland being "despicable" to you, but rather to Mucca, who manifested Godwin's law. (edit: I see demagogue has pointed this out). As for your ethnic origins, I appreciate your particular perspective; I'm not living in Ireland, nor was I born there. I could provide an account of my convoluted and somewhat absurd ethnic origins, but that might occupy a whole new thread and I'd prefer not to fall back on some sort of inverse ad hominem argument.

As for arguments in favor of a United Ireland, I would primarily focus on the lesser of two evils, that is to say I accept that sectarianism is ingrained in the six counties and could be virtually indefinitely but believe handing over the six counties to the Republic would cause a spurt of loyalist terrorism but then the potential for serious and lasting peace, and would thus be preferable to the current situation with intermittent and endless Republican attacks, as well as a ubiquitous constitutional question. There will be violence either way and in the short term handing back the six counties would be a nightmare for England but it might very well happen some time anyway, albeit not for a long time. If the latter is addressing the situation on the ground, i.e. the reality of N. Ireland, which is indeed treacherous and complex, then to address the purely theoretical, less pragmatic principles in favor of a United Ireland I would just refer you back to what I've already written in previous posts.

To riff on more, it must be said that one of the fringe paramilitary groups in the conflict will likely have to be shunned no matter what. But I think Ireland's bleak memories of the English are much more ineradicable than the Ulster-Scots' memories of Derry and miscellaneous injuries suffered at the hands of the Catholics. As Churchill, who was no real friend of the Irish, said of Cromwell: "Upon all of these Cromwell's record was a lasting bane. By an uncompleted process of terror, by an iniquitous land settlement, by the virtual proscription of the Catholic religion, by the bloody deeds already described, he cut new gulfs between the nations and the creeds. 'Hell or Connaught' were the terms he thrust upon the native inhabitants, and they for their part, across three hundred years, have used as their keenest expression of hatred 'The Curse of Cromwell on you.'... Upon all of us there still lies 'the curse of Cromwell'." I quote this in order to support the argument that despite the "rabid" and fascist nature of the Shankill Butchers, their rabid and fascist nature is trumped by the fringe republican groups, who in spite of all their wretched acts will in some morsel, however controversially, feel justified with their criminal behavior simply after comparing the death tolls over the years. Speaking of which, it's probably something like 2 or 3 million Irish Catholics vs. 30 000 Irish/British Protestants, I would very roughly guess.

Some of the best people I know in Northern Ireland (or anywhere) are from families with 1 parent Catholic and 1 Protestant (even in the Orange Order). Many of these sorts of people, and I don't believe they're that unrepresentative of the populace at large, don't actively care about the sectarianism & politics and just want peace and economic prosperity, and with a leap of faith could probably go the other way, even if they currently comply with the status quo of unionism.

The discussion could continue, and would probably lead into questioning the United Kingdom and monarchy in the modern world (which is technically punishable with life inprisonment in the U.K. still). Is N. Ireland the puzzle piece or bargaining chip paradoxically holding the United Kingdom together? Would Scotland repudiate its ties with England if N. Ireland left the Union? Can England really juggle N. Ireland indefinitely, especially with its financial woes? On a final note, to offset the notion of all the potential strife caused by a United Ireland, imagine all the good will so many millions would have towards England. This good will as well as the alleviation of the burden of administering the six counties could contribute in making the transfer actively beneficial to England.

Matthew on 19/3/2009 at 10:57

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That's a much more sensible post, sh0ck3r; I see more of where you are coming from now.

I do think that at this point devolution is the necessary first step towards whatever lies in Northern Ireland's future, though. It gets both sides used to working together without the British looming quite as large in the background as they used to.

Matthew on 19/3/2009 at 15:13

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:( I thought you loved me, Queue.

Mucca on 19/3/2009 at 17:26

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I admit my attempt to draw parallels to Nazi Germany was pretty stupid. I wanted to shock some sense into Macha, but I took the lazy option.

I still, however, fully stand behind my assertion that the notion of a United Ireland must be rejected by all parties. As long as people continue to express a desire for a union of north and south, the terrorists will see their behaviour as vindicated.

With regards to the Plantations, well, we have democracy now, so theres no longer any excuse for ignoring the wishes of the population. Also, you seem to be suggesting that just because a group of people has been oppressed in the past, they have the right to go out and oppress someone else when they get a chance. Revenge and 'just deserts' are not my idea of productive political motives.

Also, I would be extremely surprised if the Republic of Ireland wanted the six counties 'back'. They never belonged to the Republic in the first place, so its tenuous to suggest they are a part of the average southerners national identity in the same way as, I dunno, Kerry. It depends on how you define national identity I suppose. For me Nothern Ireland is a foreign country.

Besides, the rampant greed that has developed in the Republic has pretty much put pay to any notions of a unification - the south would likely see the north as merely an economic liability.