d0om on 11/3/2009 at 23:39
These people left the IRA as it was too peaceful.
They aren't normal rational human beings motivated but the same desires as the rest of us.
Its hard to understand why they would do such a thing when everything was going so well with the peace process, but they have defined their lives around violence, drug trafficking and extortion / protection rackets for so long they don't know what else to do I imagine.
If the people of Northern Ireland stand united against them, then hopefully people will report these murderers to the police and get them safely behind bars.
demagogue on 12/3/2009 at 00:16
Edit: I didn't like my first post on this, since it's sort of off topic from what you're asking about, but it's (
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcj39h99_9v9gvkhhr) here for the record.
I'm a good (classic) liberal, so of course the idea of using violence to advance any cause is pretty awful to me, and I can admire people like Mandela, ML King, and Gandhi that knew how to shake things up through non-violence and savvy politics. So I'm with you on that.
Since you wonder what non-Irish think, I think a lot of Americans are somewhat bewildered by the issue, at least by the passions it generates at this level. Most Americans (I know) don't really differentiate between Catholic vs Protestants and switch churches without much fuss apparently since it's all just watered-down feelgoodism in the name of Jesus anyway; and of course the US is made up of so many nationalities so it wouldn't really make sense for us to say "this side of the imaginary line is Anglo, and that side Mexican"; and probably the most important part about our border with Canada is just the nice straight line it makes.* The Irish situation is much different, of course -- America is in sort of a unique situation that way -- but it helps to understand why Americans can feel so bewildered by where all these passions are coming from. I mean, I'm talking about the really militant people that aren't just upset with the political situation (which is understandable), but that harbor really passionate hate for the other side and don't bat an eye at killing another human being... But from those articles and your post, I gather a lot of Irish are also alienated by that kind of militant hate.
But I am a fan of good old fashioned hardball politics and democracy, with some give and take when necessary. Do some soul-searching, decide what values are most important to you, and put up the good fight for them, expecting the other side to put up a fight too ... And let the people actually living there decide what to do with themselves. And that's what politics is all about. Ultimately, there's all these people sharing the same real-estate, with sometimes deep disagreements, that have to live together ... and will have to keep living together however the chips fall ... and you want them to talk and come to terms with each other. But yeah, no sympathy for the cheap way out of the gun, not at this point in the game.
* To be honest, I am being much too easy on the US, though. The reason we can be so at ease today came at a terrible cost in history: 1, We wholesale slaughtered the native population's resistance; 2, took half of Mexico's territory without provocation; and 3. After the Revolution we brutally terrorized the British loyalists and forced 10K's of them out by the barrel a gun, and a rash of hangings, into British occupied French Canada. That would be unspeakably awful if it happened today. It's not healthy to arrogantly presume so much innocence when the price of our own complacency was so high.
I guess the lesson is that tough situations are just tough; you should still try to do the right thing, even if the wrong thing would feel better down the road.
Kyloe on 12/3/2009 at 08:27
This conflict is often presented in our news as an issue between Catholics and Protestants, which I think is misleading. As far as I understand it, the root of the conflict is between people coming over from Scotland (the ascendency), who were rewarded land in Northern Ireland by the crown and who repressed the (at the time) original Irish population. Is that correct?
I have now lived half my life in a united Berlin, but I can still see the difference between the people from "over there" and me and "my tribe" every day. We get along on surface level, but see below that and you will find resentment, favouritism and even mistrust. It's easy to see that unstable minds could drift off into violent hatred from here.
The only hope is that the unspoken truce will last until the differences are forgotten. The truce can only last, if both sides respect each others sensitivities. There are a couple of infamous examples, where mutual respect was lacking in the past.
Rogue Keeper on 12/3/2009 at 09:02
Kyloe, are these diferencies between West Berliners and East Berliners, by extension former Western Germans and former East Germans still so hot, nearly 20 years after unification of Germany? I mean, you are one nation that was only politically divided, but still you share the same cultural backround for hundreds of years back. What is the reason? Is it of economic nature, do the former "Western Germans" have feeling they have to pay extra expenses on former "Eastern Germany" which had slower economic transformation and development, or is it just some kind of hidden localpatriotism which divides the German nation or something else? Please elaborate on this a bit, dankeschoen.
Scots Taffer on 12/3/2009 at 09:27
Kyloe is correct. Although even the original occupation of Northern Ireland has its roots in religious differences, ultimately the war waged by the "IRA" (in its many forms) was about the liberating of Northern Ireland in its infancy and then it became - like most wars - intractable bitter hatred without any real aim or purpose.
I'm not terribly surprised the ceasefire has eventually been broken, since it doesn't matter whether they fight or don't, it's not like the Crown is giving Northern Ireland back to the Republic anytime soon are they?
Also, what passes for religious hatred in Northern Ireland is pretty much par for the course in many areas of Scotland too - not perhaps with the same powderkeg potency but acts of horrific violence and general animosity? Sure.
SD on 12/3/2009 at 11:25
Quote Posted by Kyloe
This conflict is often presented in our news as an issue between Catholics and Protestants
That's because it is.
Scots Taffer on 12/3/2009 at 12:14
The fact that they are Catholics and Protestants ain't the whole of it now, is it, mr dog.
SubJeff on 12/3/2009 at 12:42
Its a core issue though and without it the situation would be very different.
DDL on 12/3/2009 at 12:48
yeah, it's kinda a case of catholic and protestant no longer really meaning an actual religious leaning, but meaning more of a blunt easily identifiable label for 'who you hate' (or not, obviously).
