PigLick on 27/2/2024 at 07:51
But what happens next though? Like what is the end result after the bloodshed stops (?)
lowenz on 27/2/2024 at 08:20
Quote Posted by demagogue
The fact that Palestine isn't a state hides the fact that elements like Hamas are an enemy of Palestine as a state. On the other hand, the fact that Israel is a state with effective control over Palestine is also hiding the fact that elements like Likud are also acting like an enemy of the state.
Maybe classical political theory is wrong, out of reality (my personal position :D) or just not usable in the Middle-East because they have another notion of "state" (a more tribal notion so the "state" is just "we now use force and you must deal with that", from either sides).
SD on 27/2/2024 at 21:26
Quote Posted by PigLick
But what happens next though? Like what is the end result after the bloodshed stops (?)
Rinse and repeat until the Palestinians either succeed in their fantasy of Jewish eradication, or abandon it.
Profoundly depressing article here about how the ideal of a two-state solution is as far away as it's ever been.
(
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/sorry-there-is-no-two-state-solution)
Quote:
To be sure, the two-state solution was a noble dream. But it turns out it always was just that—a dream. What enabled those who clung to it long enough to continue sleepwalking through the wrecks of exploding buses, the bodies of slain civilians, the constant wild calls for violence against us, the massive efforts to build terror infrastructures under our noses and on our borders, was our own tendency to imagine Palestinians in our own image. For all the fashionable talk of diversity, we too find it hard to imagine a people that is not like ourselves. Knowing our own striving for self-determination, we assumed that the Palestinians, too, want above all to be masters of their own fate in their own sovereign state.
But that is not what they want. The huge amount of international aid Palestinians have received since 1948 was never used for nation-building. It wasn't used for building houses and roads or for planting orange groves. It was harnessed to one overarching cause: the destruction of the Jewish state. This is what the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) does: subsidize and shield Palestinian terror infrastructure. This is what the PA does with its pay-for-slay salaries—underwritten by the U.S.—to the families of terrorists. And this is what Hamas was able to do as a result of the billions invested in Gaza: It bought weapons, trained terrorists, and built a sprawling network of terror tunnels—and not one bomb shelter for civilians.DuatDweller on 28/2/2024 at 10:35
Quote Posted by demagogue
(1) Collective punishment is always illegal.
(2) The election was in 2006, 18 years ago. There's no viable popular mandate here.
(3) And even aside from that, your argument doesn't apply anyway when even an elected government starts committing rampant war crimes and human rights violations. They lose their legitimacy.
The fact that Palestine isn't a state hides the fact that elements like Hamas are an enemy of Palestine as a state. On the other hand, the fact that Israel is a state with effective control over Palestine is also hiding the fact that elements like Likud are also acting like an enemy of the state.
What's a small state supposed to do when they're attacked on a regular basis, give up? Every time Israel was attacked, it gained more territory. And who's fault was that?
I know there are innocent victims, but when a few people act to bring more misery upon themselves, and they naively think Israel wont react somehow?
The whole point is very easily missed, don't start shit and there wont be any (shit).
It doesn't matter who rose to power and who helped them.
The wars Israel was involved by other parties.
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel)
And also is not my fault the area in question was never able to be stable without a dictatorship (Syria, Iraq, Egypt) or foreign administration or the intervention of wars by foreign powers.
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine)
Nicker on 28/2/2024 at 13:01
Quote Posted by SD
Rinse and repeat until the Palestinians either succeed in their fantasy of Jewish eradication, or abandon it.
Works just as well when you reverse the players. Which is the point you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge. Also, this Likud vs Hamas, not Jews vs Palestinians, another fact you seem incapable of even considering. This is a Two Asshole problem with a two state solution neither of the assholes wants and a one state solution neither of them can ever get.
Quote Posted by SD
Profoundly depressing article here about how the ideal of a two-state solution is as far away as it's ever been.
Speaking of which, you have yet to answer the challenge of describing how the Likud One State solution would work. If you want a jumping off point, just look at the ruins of Gaza and the millions of refugees who can't even flee without being shot in the back.
Starker on 28/2/2024 at 21:37
A list of arguments being used to justify genocide that at this point seem somehow eerily familiar:
[video=youtube;LrGlRax9AiY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrGlRax9AiY[/video]
Cipheron on 29/2/2024 at 01:17
Quote Posted by lowenz
Maybe classical political theory is wrong, out of reality (my personal position :D) or just not usable in the Middle-East because they have another notion of "state" (a more tribal notion so the "state" is just "we now use force and you must deal with that", from either sides).
Hmm, I don't think it's necessary to come up with a theory that the Palestinians have a "different concept of what a state is", because there are other Arabs right next door with perfectly normally functioning states
For example, Gaza was just part of Egypt until the 1967 war, so whether you're being called a Palestinian Arab or Egyptian Arab comes down to which side of the new border you live on, and you don't need any weird theories to explain how the government in Egypt works.
The Israelis have a specific strategy of not allowing the Palestinians the room to develop any sort of coherent state-like apparatus. Basically, they don't want the Palestinians to have anything to hold onto, such as a stable government who can guarantee their safety and security.
Palestine would 100% form into a coherent "state", but Israel is specifically working against that.
SD on 29/2/2024 at 19:11
Quote Posted by Nicker
Works just as well when you reverse the players. Which is the point you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge
Ah, the enduring fantasy that Israel wants them all dead, which doesn't even hold up to cursory scrutiny. If Israel actually wanted them gone, they'd be gone. They wouldn't be thriving in record numbers, getting fat on Western money.
Quote Posted by Nicker
Speaking of which, you have yet to answer the challenge of describing how the Likud One State solution would work.
The same Likud that withdrew from Gaza and demolished all the Israeli settlements there?
Look, you can make whatever claims you want, but your source is going to need to be better than trust me bro.
Aja on 29/2/2024 at 20:14
The enduring fantasy that 30,000 of them have been killed since October?
Starker on 29/2/2024 at 21:06
As the above video amply demonstrated, you don't have to look hard to find genocidal rhetoric from Israel's leaders and the actions are backing it up. And as Shaun's video shows, it has historical roots from the very start of the colonial project. This is the reason behind the settlements and destruction of Palestinian villages. This is the reason behind the massive targeting of the civilian infrastructure in Gaza. You don't bomb a bakery because a terrorist might shop there, you bomb it to make civilians suffer.
Also, the idea that Palestinians are fat and thriving off of the abundance of Western aid cannot be described as anything else but a poor attempt at black humour in the same category as the idea that everything is fine in Gaza, because they have 5 star hotels (when their houses are not currently being bombed into rubble, that is).
