SD on 28/1/2025 at 00:35
Quote Posted by heywood
That might be the stupidist thing anyone has said on TTLG, and that's saying a lot.
It's a literal fact. They're not the same deity, despite Muhammad's attempt at syncretism. Although they did both promise Israel to the Jews, so there's that.
Edit: of course Yahweh is immaterial to the discussion anyway, because Israel is a secular state whose people are united by heritage rather than faith.
Quote Posted by Nicker
Let's not be hasty, heywood...
I didn't say that, please desist from slandering me.
Nicker on 29/1/2025 at 04:42
Quote Posted by SD
I didn't say that, please desist from slandering me.
You are quite correct. I wrongly attributed SubJeff's quote to you and I am sincerely sorry for my error. It was not deliberate but careless. I have corrected the post in question and admitted my mistake there as well.
N.
Nicker on 29/1/2025 at 05:07
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Religions can't have it both ways. Either there is one god (monotheism) or not.
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Yes, you're technically correct...
I beg to differ with both of those assertions. Agreeing in principle, that the position of supreme being can only be occupied by a single, sovereign entity, is a separate proposition from claiming to correctly and exclusively identify that being.
To those who assert that they know the identity of the One God, the name is not just an arbitrary, optional label applied to the same thing, it is a means of differentiating their One True God from the other False God. They are claiming that the very nature and person of their One God, is entirely different from and superior to to other people's One God. In fact, the other One God doesn't even exist as a competitor. There is literally no comparison.
In the case of the Children of Abraham, each of the three siblings claim that Abraham's God is their God but deny that He is the god of the other two.
Regardless of this lunacy, belief in the afterlife devalues both this world and the lives of your religious enemies, making their deaths divinely justified and your murders divinely sanctioned.
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Edit: of course Yahweh is immaterial to the discussion anyway, because Israel is a secular state whose people are united by heritage rather than faith.
WTF? A heritage of insisting that YHVH chose the Jews as His People. How is that not religious? Zionism is inherently religious. The political factions which prevent real secular solutions in Israel are religious. You can't dress it up and make the it go away with rhetoric.
Hamas is religious. Likud is religious. Walks like, quacks like... IS.
Harvester on 29/1/2025 at 08:34
Quote Posted by Nicker
In the case of the Children of Abraham, each of the three siblings claim that Abraham's God is their God but deny that He is the god of the other two.
I don't want to start a religion debate here (and will bow out if this turns into one), but I think this is not entirely correct. Many (not all) Jews and Christians believe that about the God of Islam, yes. It's mostly left-leaning Christians that believe Allah is the same God, not conservative ones. But the majority of Christians will probably attest that religious Jews believe in the same God as they do, just that they are wrong not to recognize Jesus as the promised Messiah. So they are missing something essential, but it's still the same God, according to the majority of Christians I know. I don't know that many religious Jews personally, but I think some of them also think that Christians worship the same God but that they are misguided at seeing Jesus as the Biblical Messiah, and the New Testament as a holy scripture from God. They believe the Messiah is yet to come, and that Christians are wrong at recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. What they often do take offense at is Christians proselytizing among Jews. Judaism itself is not a proselytizing religion, you can join but at large they're not going to seek you out.
Edit: of course I'm talking about the present situation, not about historical anti-semitism by Christians, I do know about that.
Subjective Effect on 29/1/2025 at 09:25
Quote Posted by Nicker
Every time you assert that the violence is only coming from Hamas, you are denying that Likud is in any way culpable, making any criticism of Likud a false accusation against them, implying that critics are unfairly blaming Likud while making excuses for Hamas, thus condoning the violent acts of Hamas.
Lol.
This is an absolute Masterclass in Strawmanning.
I think Bibi is the worst thing to happen to Israel in my living memory. His party is ridiculous and his allies are extremist nutters. I hate what they are doing in the WB, I think the IDF has commited masses of (war) crimes and that settler violence is amongst the most whitewashed awfulness this century.
But please, do weave some more.
Subjective Effect on 29/1/2025 at 09:31
Quote Posted by Nicker
And there you go, fucking straw-manning again. I have trouble telling you and S.E. apart, what with only a single letter separating you in the alphabet and a paper thin gap separating pretty much everything else.
Except I
DO want to remove all the settlers from the West Bank.
There are about 1/2 a million. That's a lot of real estate and a lot of facilities that they could leave to about 1/6 of WB Palestinians. Move them south of Be'er Sheva and rebuild there. Train the WBPs on the farms/factories/whatever that are left in the WB. I'm sure funding from Arab nations could be found for this. It'd be a massive show of good will and boost the WB economy.
I doubt SD would agree with this, so...
Subjective Effect on 29/1/2025 at 19:03
OMG.
I found footage of the horrible horrible (
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFa2wLLqZaR) open air prison/ concentration camp conditions that the Gazans were living in before 7th Oct! Imagine living like this!!
I finally understand why they need to "resist"! It's resistance against beach front swimming pools!
SD on 29/1/2025 at 20:54
Auschwitz was well known for its 5 star hotels and luxury car showrooms, don't you know.
Nicker on 31/1/2025 at 18:58
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I doubt SD would agree with this, so...
If I have been misreading you all this time, I apologize and will try to do better. But if you say daft crap like "Trump has some fresh ideas. I think we should indulge him." it's going to be a tough slog.
And when you say crap like this "I finally understand why they need to "resist"! It's resistance against beach front swimming pools!" It sort of makes your anti-settlement stance look like a ruse.
Nicker on 31/1/2025 at 19:03
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I don't want to start a religion debate here...
Me either. I think these details are fodder for a separate thread.
I only added the opinion about everyone getting their conflicting marching orders from the same god, to add icing on the superstitious stupidity-cake.
The point is - however you slice God or the Gods, the war has deep roots in ancient religious conflicts. Pretending it is only a modern, secular border dispute does a deadly disservice to understanding the problem or finding a solution. Both sides claim divine justification for their crimes and when you have god on your side you already have the solution and there is nothing to negotiate.
Meanwhile, people in the middle suffer needlessly.
