Starker on 25/1/2025 at 06:24
I can say that Hamas is a problem, that terrorists are a problem and an obstacle to peace. More importantly, I'm not excusing Hamas's actions in any way, shape, or form. What they have done constitutes a war crime. But the actions of Israel likewise are a war crime.
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If the Palestinians rejected violence forever more... there would be peace.
You are the one who is claiming that Israel is not a problem, that only Palestinians are the problem. Not Hamas, not terrorists -- Palestinians. You are completely turning a blind eye on the settlements, on the violence from Israel's side, on the terrible conditions Palestinians find themselves in, not even being able to tend their farms for fear of violence. The moment a ceasefire was announced, there was a pogrom where Israeli settlers attacked villages in the West Bank in protest and you only talk about Palestinians being a problem. You are an apologist for genocide and apartheid.
Subjective Effect on 25/1/2025 at 07:50
How many times have I posted on this forum that the WB should be evacuated of Israeli settlements and settlers?
A few.
Everyone knows the Israelis do a lot of shady stuff, some of which is criminal and needs prosecution.
But the biggest issue is still Palestinian violence. By far.
Starker on 25/1/2025 at 12:13
The problem with this kind of thinking, that Palestinians are the violent ones who need to be punished more and more, is that it breeds precisely this kind of cyclical violence. The more Palestinian children you kill, the more you sink Palestinians into poverty, the more you deny any political solutions to the problems Palestinians face, the more you breed violence and extremism on the Palestinian side. I've said it before in this thread -- what Israel is doing in Gaza is not destroying Hamas, it is creating Hamas.
What if the UK had done this with Northern Ireland? Enacted a blockade around the place to sink the Irish into poverty, occupied the rest of Ireland and enacted martial law, bombed Irish towns in the north to rubble? Do you think there would be peace now? Yet in your line of thinking the problem in this case was also Irish violence, was it not?
Subjective Effect on 25/1/2025 at 13:54
You're another master weaver of strawmen.
Why do you assume I think they need to be "punished more and more"? I think they need a good talking to from other Arab powers. The heads of Hamas resided in Qatar in 7 star hotels for years. Instead of supporting them the Qatari leadership could have got them talking about a non-violent future for the ME, with other ME leaders.
Cry me a river about the "poverty" in the Gaza Strip, really. I've seen video from pre war Gaza that was spread about by lefty loons like you, in a hilArious own goal, in an attempt to show how nice Gaza was and how mean the Israelis are, but actually demonstrating that it was far from poor and far from an "open air prison". There were luxury car fellowships FFS!
And in addition Hamas clearly had millions and millions that they spent on tunnels and weapons.
Please, PLEASE, STFU about "poverty" in Palestine. Go Google what Mahmoud Abbas' house looks like, print 50 pages of the image, and slap yourself with the stack.
Ridiculous nonsense.
And Ireland is nothing like the occupied territories. The comparison is beneath me, and beneath even your strawman loom..
heywood on 25/1/2025 at 13:58
It seems to me that the root of the problem is that both sides are being controlled by hard liners who aren't willing to share their common homeland. Unless or until that changes, I would prefer to cut off ties and aid to both of them. However, I can't ignore the fact that Iran is waging a war on Israel, both directly and through proxies, so I do favor helping Israel fend off the missile and drone attacks, which are still coming from Yemen every few days. But it pisses me off to no end when we supply them with bombs and other offensive weapons, and help fund WB settlements. Also, I don't know why we have such patience with the Houthis.
Starker on 25/1/2025 at 15:50
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
You're another master weaver of strawmen.
You are the weaver of strawmen here. By saying that Palestinian violence is the root cause of the conflict, you are ignoring basically all of the history in the region. Furthermore, this implies that what Israel is doing in Gaza and West Bank has very little to do with the conflict when it's one of the major obstacles to peace.
Also, you have a child's understanding of poverty. You think because Maduro has a mansion or because there are five star hotels in Caracas, therefore Venezuelans are living in luxury? Or is this because you are one of those people for whom poverty is some kind of an abstract concept that only stems from people's laziness? Look at all the available statistics -- the majority of the people in Gaza were food insecure before the recent escalation of the conflict, with unemployment as high as 45%. Yeah, those Palestinians living below the poverty line sure were buying luxury cars while relying on food aid:
So, it seems that it is in fact you who ought to STFU about poverty in Gaza, because clearly you have zero understanding of the conditions there.
Nice dodge on the Ireland conflict there. I wasn't saying that Ireland was like the occupied territories, I was asking you to imagine what would have happened if the UK had gone the route of Israel and had started collectively punishing the Irish to the extent Israel is doing it with Palestinians.
Lastly, you know nothing about me to even try to attempt to throw insults and slurs around. You are only embarrassing yourself.
RippedPhreak on 25/1/2025 at 16:02
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in addition Hamas clearly had millions and millions that they spent on tunnels and weapons. Please, PLEASE, STFU about "poverty" in Palestine. Go Google what Mahmoud Abbas' house looks like, print 50 pages of the image, and slap yourself with the stack.
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you have a child's understanding of poverty. You think because Maduro has a mansion or because there are five star hotels in Caracas, therefore Venezuelans are living in luxury?
His point was that Palestinians are in poverty not because of Israel's actions but because their leaders steal all the money for themselves, build themselves luxurious mansions and squirrel away the rest in foreign bank accounts. Just like Maduro does. Absolute *whoosh* there.
Starker on 25/1/2025 at 16:20
He said Gaza was far from being poor. Also, who was the one supplying suitcases full of cash to Hamas while undermining Fatah? Hmm? The bitter truth is that Hamas was more of an ally to the right wing leaders of Israel than their secular more peaceful counterparts.
Also, you think unemployment and food crisis stems simply from the leaders stealing all the money? Nothing to do with the blockade? Nothing to do with Israel's deliberate policy of keeping Gaza at the brink of collapse? Nothing to do with the demonstrable economic factors caused by Israel's policy?
Nicker on 25/1/2025 at 18:49
Quote Posted by Cipheron
There has not in fact been centuries of this going on. It's within living memory. The main incidents are post WWII, but ultimately stem from the British's hamfisted carve up the Ottoman Empire post WWI.
That's just the latest, modern chapter. The tribes of the middle east were engaged in wars of genocide even before the god of Abraham gave them special permission to act with his blessing. The justifications for the continuation of atrocities ON BOTH SIDES still stems from the overt justifications and orders provided by Yahweh and Allah (the same deity, BTW).
This is a centuries old conflict.
Nicker on 25/1/2025 at 18:57
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Cry me a river about the "poverty" in the Gaza Strip, really.
Yeah, like how poor people all over the world, and all throughout history are to blame for rich people stealing from them STOOPID POOR PEEPLES!!! hurrr durrrr
You are still blaming ALL of the violence on one side when it is coming from BOTH sides. And your only defence is and has always been, Hamas is worse. But the violence is just two different flavours, not better or worse. Hamas does its violence randomly and on a much smaller scale. Likud is slow, methodical and calculating.
Where there is a clear power imbalance, like Likud has over Hamas, it is the side with the stronger hand who has the most power to stop the violence. Likud has the stronger hand, by far.
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You're another master weaver of strawmen.
Says the guy who continuously asserts that any criticism of Likud is automatically condoning violence.
