RippedPhreak on 23/1/2025 at 13:29
Yes I'm sure if all the Jews dropped their guns, linked arms and walked into Gaza singing "Imagine," the Palestinians would be overcome with empathy and embrace them weeping for joy...?
Ummm no, it would be a scene of inhuman butchery to rival the Cenobites from Hellraiser.
demagogue on 23/1/2025 at 15:45
Have you not seen any pictures of Gaza right now?
There has already been a scene of inhuman butchery for 15 months.
These are residential apartments, and it's like this in every city over the entire region.
Inline Image:
https://i.ibb.co/1mGTg4h/image1170x530cropped.jpgEdit: As for "Imagine" and in contrast, here's what the city in Israel with the highest Palestinian population, Acre, looks like. Palestinians have no problem living peacefully alongside the Jewish population when they have equal rights.
Inline Image:
https://i.ibb.co/GRmzTtZ/Akko.webpEdit2: As for Hamas, obviously it's a terrorist organization that's provoking conflict and has gotta go. A lot of people have noted how it's been in Likud's & Netanyahu's interest to keep propping it up as a convenient foil. They say they want to destroy Hamas, but Hamas has more followers now than before the war; so what they mean is they want to destroy Gaza, and their tacit support of Hamas is what lets them do it.
But long story short, Hamas has to go, and the way you get rid of it is the way every domestic terrorist group has ever been gotten rid of. You give the population another alternative to do normal politics through the legislature instead of through gunfire.
RippedPhreak on 23/1/2025 at 17:03
Why do you want to appease these monsters?
The Gazans must not be rewarded for mass slaughter of civilians, rape and taking hostages by being awarded political representation. If you reward them for Oct 7th, you'll get more Oct 7th. They will think "if these weak cowards are giving us all this for murdering 1,300 of them, what will they give us if murder 3,000 next time?"
SD on 23/1/2025 at 18:09
Quote Posted by demagogue
As for "Imagine" and in contrast, here's what the city in Israel with the highest Palestinian population, Acre, looks like. Palestinians have no problem living peacefully alongside the Jewish population when they have equal rights.
have no problem living peacefully alongside Jews in Israel. Palestinians and Arab-Israelis are not the same thing. You may as well use South Koreans as evidence that North Koreans are fine and dandy. Even Arabs in other countries no longer want to touch the Palestinians with a bargepole. Palestinian society is a deeply sick one. The reasons for that could be debated at length, but it's been a problem since long before Likud was founded in 1973. And until that changes, no rapprochement will ever be possible. You cannot coexist with the people who perpetrated October 7th.
demagogue on 23/1/2025 at 18:55
It was a challenge integrating East Germany into a greater Germany and still today the east has social and economic challenges, but there wasn't any serious debate that they weren't basically the same people that should be part of the same country when the illiberal side collapsed. (Well, Germany volk feel free to give your perspective), and I think that's the same for North and South Korea, (edit: there's a debate about China and Taiwan & Hong Kong, but let's talk if Chinese communism collapses), and people whose great grandparents x1000 were born and lived between the Jordan River and the Med. Sea and speak the Palestinian dialect of Arabic, if you work to end the authoritarian and apartheid structures. I wouldn't say that people that were born and raised in engineered ghettos without access to quality education or economic opportunities and had Israel-supported hate groups feeding them endless propaganda like the Communists did for E. Germany and N. Korea did or all of East Europe for that matter, that it would be any easier for them to integrate into a liberal society like East Germany did into Germany.
But illiberal dictatorships are are terrible form of government that perpetuates violence and extremism and liberal democracies are good forms of government that end violence and extremism, and I actually think that dictatorships like North Korea, China, East Germany, and occupied Palestine should be ended, even given the challenge it took / will take. If you look at East Germany today or Poland or the Czech republic, it was a challenge integrating them into liberal democracies, but they're functioning countries doing well for themselves, definitely compared to the Cold War period. What side of history are you even on?
Edit: You're missing the basic point. My point is the starting point has to be getting rid of Hamas. It looks like you're trying to "disagree" with me by emphasizing the same thing. My point is you can't get rid of Hamas unless Palestinians have equal rights first. As long as they live in aparthied-like conditions, Hamas will have a base.
Edit2: The main difference in cases is what authority has ultimate control over what's happening on the ground. In North Korea, it's the Korean communist party. In China it's the Han-dominated CCP, in East Germany and most of East Europe it was actually the Soviets, and in occupied West Bank and (
https://www.congreso.es/docu/docum/ddocum/notasdocumentales/nd2/pdfs/2.pdf) effectively occupied (and now actually and probably perpetually occupied) Gaza, the government of Israel is the controlling authority. The reason that East Germany could integrate with the west had everything to do with Gorbachev's decision. (People from there or East Europe feel free to correct me; but that's what I've read. No democratization movement was ever going anywhere without the Soviets, even without their literal occupation; it was still an effective political occupation and control over the political system.) For China and North Korea, sure, the Han and Korean leaders will have to decide to self-collapse before integration and they probably won't, but occupied Palestine is more like East Germany, where it needed a Soviet decision, occupied Palestine needs Israel's decision about its future status to normalize. I don't think there's much doubt today that the only reason Hamas still exists today is because Netanyahu has orchestrated their continued authority, and whatever he said about the aims of the war (to completely destroy Hamas), neither his actions or the actual results look anything like an attempt to actually destroy Hamas. East Germany didn't democratize because every communist there was "destroyed"; it did it because the Soviets tolerated it liberalizing and democratizing. That's the only way you're going to see a real change of authority away from the radicals to the moderates and normal politics. Look at who's the controlling authority, and that's who has the power.
Subjective Effect on 23/1/2025 at 23:23
Quote Posted by Starker
Again, how does killing children with bombs, disease and famine help keep peace?
I doesn't. This isn't related to what I was saying so :confused:
Quote Posted by demagogue
There will be violence as long as Palestinians don't have nationality and equal status in a state.
So they should have a state. See how this isn't hard? How about ooooooooh, talking about it? Have a discussion with the Israelis about what they want?
What a novel idea!
Quote:
If Palestinians rejected violence forevermore and nothing else happened, they'd still be living under apartheid-like conditions forevermore
Who said nothing else should happen? No one. You're weaving strawmen out of those fields of straw again.
Quote:
If Israel gave them equal rights, there would be peace.
So why not talk about how this will happen?
Quote:
Do you know how we know? Because there are about 2 million Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, and there is no conflict with them. They're literally the same people.
No, they are not. Arab-Israelis agreed to be part of Israel and stayed there. These are very different groups of people and it's a liiiiiittle bit racist saying they are literally the same.
Quote Posted by Nicker
You don't actually "know" that. That's your lopsided opinion stated as fact.
I think it's a fairly good guess though. They attacked Israel when they knew there would be a military response, but if they know there's going to be NO military response that will... scare them? Wut? Lol
Quote:
Why do you insist that the violence is only one sided, that there are only one set of victims and one perpetrator? That is simply not the case.
I don't. But I do see that one side is continuously trying to kill the civilians of the other and starting wars. Israel does not decide one day "lets go to war". It's always a reaction to being attacked. You know this but you pretend not to.
heywood on 24/1/2025 at 00:51
Quote Posted by RippedPhreak
Why do you want to appease these monsters?
No, I don't want to appease Israel or Hamas. They're both monsters. I want nothing to do with either of them.
Cipheron on 24/1/2025 at 02:43
Quote Posted by Nicker
I guess a pause in the cyclic-centuries of serial violence is a blessing.
There has not in fact been centuries of this going on. It's within living memory. The main incidents are post WWII, but ultimately stem from the British's hamfisted carve up the Ottoman Empire post WWI.
Starker on 24/1/2025 at 07:21
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I doesn't. This isn't related to what I was saying so :confused:
Yes it is. You are completely ignoring the massive amount of violence against civilians in Gaza and West Bank, the torture of Palestinians being held in indefinite detention without trial, the building of illegal settlements on Palestinian lands, and the open rhetoric of violence and dehumanisation from Israel's side, as if peace was only dependent on the Palestinians in Gaza and solely on them. And the words of Israelis are backed up by their actions -- they promised to turn Gaza into a tent city and they did -- turning most of the residential and commercial buildings into rubble and repeatedly attacking every single hospital in the area, destroying more than half of them completely and leaving the rest only partially functional. They also blocked aid crucial for the survival of the people, such as food and medicine, which has led to a humanitarian crisis putting more than a million people at risk of starvation.
And all of this is not even taking into account Israel's previous policies of deliberately trying to keep Gaza on the brink of collapse: (
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/)
Subjective Effect on 25/1/2025 at 04:26
I see.
So I point out that Hamas is promising to murder Israelis again but I have to talk about some other things first before I'm "allowed" to point out Hamas' murderous intent?
Lol.
Special Jews Rules. You can't make clownery like this up. Are there any other people on earth who have such "tasks" before being allowed to say "hold on, that dude just said he wants to murder me and my children. Can we talk about how that is just murderously insane?" ?
You're being a terrorist apologist. I hope you're able to see that one day.
