heywood on 28/10/2024 at 16:53
That doesn't refute either point Tomi and I made. It doesn't even make sense. And protests are a regular occurrence outside of the Russian embassy BTW. It seems you don't pay attention when people protest unless it's against Israel.
Subjective Effect on 28/10/2024 at 17:56
There's protests outside the Russian embassy about Russian military support of regimes that kill Muslim civilians?
Where?
100s of 1000s have died but nothing gets the protesters out line Israel. Nothing..
I appreciate that many lefties are just being lefties and aren't aiming to be anti-Semitic, but when your allies are people supporting Hamas and Hezbollah in the same protests don't you ever feel the need to question yourself?
heywood on 28/10/2024 at 18:57
All Muslims are not Palestinian and all Palestinians are not Muslim. You're being absurd by equating a category of religions with a specific ethnic group.
The Palestinian diaspora and pro-Palestinian protesters in the US and UK are protesting institutions they can have an influence over, trying to get them to divest from Israel. Israel is their target because it's the country bombing the Palestinian territories. Last I checked, Russia isn't, so why would they protest Russia?
Tomi on 28/10/2024 at 21:44
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
And our countries have diplomatic relations with lots of the governments that are killing.
Eh, you're now clutching at straws here. According to wikipedia, Finland has diplomatic relations with 192 countries. I couldn't even place some of them on the map, let alone feel some kind of a cultural connection to them. Sure, I want my friends in
Eswatini to be safe and happy, but if some terrible accident happened in their country, it wouldn't affect me as much as it would if it happened in my own country or one of our neighbours, because I have no idea where Eswatini is or what their religion is (not that I care) or what language they speak. (Turns out that Eswatini is formed Swaziland, so at least I learned something new today!)
I have to say that I'm a bit confused here. You seem to have some kind of an issue with muslims, yet you're painting
everyone protesting against Israel's actions with the same antisemite brush? Obviously I can't speak for everyone in the western world because antisemitism does exist, but us "lefties" aren't
allied with people who support any terrorist organisation, even if we share the opinion that Israel bombing the shit out of civilians and starving them to death is a bad thing. I think that's just being human.
SD on 29/10/2024 at 02:58
Quote Posted by heywood
I can't speak for the rest of the world, but the US and UK feel responsible for what Israel does because we made the project happen. Israel was supposed to a foothold for western values in the Middle East. We wanted it to become a model for the region, a billboard for democracy and western liberalism. I feel like Israel didn't hold up their end of the bargain and doesn't deserve our support any longer. It doesn't matter that it's a Jewish state, what matters is that it's misbehaving and not taking responsibility for it, like a petulant child who gets in trouble and cries how everyone is being unfair and it's all someone else's fault.
Look, first of all, the West is a big part of the reason why Jews lost control of that region in the first place. Greeks conquered it, and then Italians did, and it was the Italians who destroyed the Second Temple and then banned Jews from Jerusalem. Western interference is what caused Jews to be scattered around the world, yearning for the day they could return. So please, spare me the "progressive West" stuff. The West owes Jewish people big time, and that's before you even touch upon all the atrocities that Jews were subjected to in the diaspora, after they'd been forced out of their homeland.
And secondly, what? If you don't think modern Israel possesses Western values, then how do you account for the fact that it is the (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_by_region#Middle_East_and_North_Africa) only free country in the entirety of the Middle East and North Africa? That Israel allowed gay people to openly serve in the military 18 years before the United States did? Or that it permitted same-sex adoption 9 years before the US? I could go on but nobody would thank me for it. The point is that Israel is absolutely the frontline of our civilisation, and it doesn't need to prove its credentials to anyone. If some in the West don't grasp that it is fighting an existential battle against savages and barbarians, that's their problem.
SD on 29/10/2024 at 03:11
Quote Posted by Tomi
the reason why we get the "Israel is killing children" shouts is most likely because
Israel is killing children, and has been killing children for years and years. :erm:
But children have died in every single war, past and current. Where are the "Syria is killing children" op-eds? The "Sudan is killing children" protests on our streets? They don't exist.
Typicallly, the issue is not with criticism of Israel
per se, but the singling out of Israel for special condemnation. People need to appreciate that it's possible for Israel to be engaged in improper actions, but also for it to be treated unfairly.
I mean, everyone accepts that George Floyd was a ne'er-do-well with a long history of illegality, but they also accept that his treatment was unacceptable, went way beyond what is reasonable, and was prompted, at least in part, by his race. Why do they have such difficulty applying this easily understood concept as it relates to Israel?
Tomi on 29/10/2024 at 15:56
Quote Posted by SD
But children have died in every single war, past and current. Where are the "Syria is killing children" op-eds? The "Sudan is killing children" protests on our streets? They don't exist.
I've addressed this at least twice in this thread already. Like you said, Israel does possess some Western values and they're very closely connected to Europe in many ways, so people naturally pay more attention to their actions. When USA and UK and the allies invaded Iraq in 2003 there were
massive protests all over the world. Did you ever ask why they were being "unfairly" singled out when there were a lot of conflicts going on around the world at the same time? The "war on terror" probably felt like a justified act to many after the 2001 terror attacks, but what happened in reality wasn't purely a noble and heroic battle between Good and Evil.
Quote:
I mean, everyone accepts that George Floyd was a ne'er-do-well with a long history of illegality, but they also accept that his treatment was unacceptable, went way beyond what is reasonable, and was prompted, at least in part, by his race. Why do they have such difficulty applying this easily understood concept as it relates to Israel?
If anything, I think that Palestine should be the George Floyd in your analogy. Israel has every right to defend itself, no one is denying that, but what they're doing right now goes far beyond that. No one's denying that they're progressive in many ways either (except for the "anti-woke" folks of course), but genocide and your somewhat sickening "frontline of our civilisation" are a grotesque combination.
Starker on 29/10/2024 at 18:59
Tomi, Tomi, Tomi... they are just straightening out some savages, that's all. Does killing children leave a bad taste in your mouth? Well, children are killed everywhere in the world. No need to focus on these particular children. Just look away!
heywood on 29/10/2024 at 22:13
Quote Posted by SD
Look, first of all, the West is a big part of the reason why Jews lost control of that region in the first place. Greeks conquered it, and then Italians did, and it was the Italians who destroyed the Second Temple and then banned Jews from Jerusalem. Western interference is what caused Jews to be scattered around the world, yearning for the day they could return. So please, spare me the "progressive West" stuff. The West owes Jewish people big time, and that's before you even touch upon all the atrocities that Jews were subjected to in the diaspora, after they'd been forced out of their homeland.
And secondly, what? If you don't think modern Israel possesses Western values, then how do you account for the fact that it is the (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_by_region#Middle_East_and_North_Africa) only free country in the entirety of the Middle East and North Africa? That Israel allowed gay people to openly serve in the military 18 years before the United States did? Or that it permitted same-sex adoption 9 years before the US? I could go on but nobody would thank me for it. The point is that Israel is absolutely the frontline of our civilisation, and it doesn't need to prove its credentials to anyone. If some in the West don't grasp that it is fighting an existential battle against savages and barbarians, that's their problem.
It's not a free country if you're Palestinian. Palestinians are not savages and barbarians, they are people like anybody else. Some of them commit atrocities when they feel wronged, but most of them are just looking for a safe place to live and a job, and hoping there will be opportunities for their children. Kind of like Israeli Jews. Some of them commit atrocities when they feel wronged, but most of them are just looking for a safe place to live and a job, and hoping there will be opportunities for their children. For you, the killing of an innocent Jew is a greater loss than the killing of an innocent Palestinian. For me, it's not. I keep coming back to the disproportionality of the relationship between Israeli Jews and Palestinians.
Subjective Effect on 30/10/2024 at 12:10
20% of Israelis are Palestinians or "Israeli-Arabs".
Some of these people serve in the IDF. They exist in every walk it's Israeli life, in every type of profession.
Here this from an Arab in Israel: (
https://x.com/YosephHaddad/status/1851258129708671014)
The notion of apartheid is a lie. Muslim Arabs in Israel can be in government. They can be judges in cases against ex PMs!
None of this was possible under the real apartheid.
Saying I've "got a problem with Muslims" is like saying Simone has a problem with Germans because they have a problem with Nazis. And just as stupid. My best man is a Muslim..
