Starker on 12/12/2023 at 15:04
Quote Posted by SD
Regardless, I don't know what your argument is. Nobody's proposing that Palestinians should be kicked out of their adopted home in Palestine, just that the Jews, who are native to the region, be allowed to live there too.
Smotrich's Decisive Plan proposes pretty much that, though. Either swear loyalty to Israel and give up your identity and your rights, be forcibly relocated, or be killed if you resist.
Nicker on 14/12/2023 at 06:46
Quote Posted by SD
If Israel ever becomes a theocracy as opposed to being a democracy with a few theocrats in it, then you may be justified in claiming some kind of equivalence with the likes of Iran and their proxies. Until then...
When the smattering of theocrats make all the important decisions or subvert secular politics on a regular basis, you have a functioning theocracy. When your country goes to war inspired by a myth, you are a theocracy.
Quote Posted by SD
Sorry, I don't know what "Arab Semites" are. Semite is a language family, not a people.
And yet you called everyone who disagreed with you, anti-Semites. Were you calling us anti-Arab or anti-Jewish? Or language snobs?
The Semitic language family is a group of languages spoken by the Semitic peoples, which include Jews and Arabs. That's how nested hierarchies work.
And while all Arabs have genetic ancestors in the Middle East, not all Jews do. Ashkenazi Jews share a small part of their paternal DNA with Near Eastern ancestors, while their maternal DNA is European. Not that DNA matters unless you want to argue ancestral claims. Ashkenazi Jews migrated to Israel after WW2. Were they natives? How about their children?
Quote Posted by SD
Native people in Judea are Judeans. We call them Jews in English.
Circular semantics. You still have not defined "native". The vast majority of North Americans were born here and in one sense of the word, they are natives but they aren't
Natives (i.e. Aboriginal).
Words are slippery fishies.
SD on 14/12/2023 at 17:48
Quote Posted by Nicker
When the smattering of theocrats make all the important decisions or subvert secular politics on a regular basis, you have a functioning theocracy. When your country goes to war inspired by a myth, you are a theocracy.
Okay, well when Netanyahu gets voted out at the earliest opportunity, you'll see that it is in fact a democracy, won't you.
Quote Posted by Nicker
And yet you called everyone who disagreed with you, anti-Semites. Were you calling us anti-Arab or anti-Jewish? Or language snobs?
The Semitic language family is a group of languages spoken by the Semitic peoples, which include Jews and Arabs. That's how nested hierarchies work.
First off, I'm quite sure I didn't call everyone who disagreed with me an antisemite.
Secondly, I don't like the term "antisemitism", but it has, and has only ever had, one single meaning. It was a term popularised in the 19th century as an alternative to "Jew-hatred" in order to make anti-Jewish racism sound more scientific.
As I say, there are only Semitic languages, not Semitic peoples. People who are ignorant of the origins of the word "antisemitism" often try to conflate Arabs under the antisemitism banner ("Arabs are Semites too!!!111" and suchlike) but it only relates to Jews.
Quote Posted by Nicker
And while all Arabs have genetic ancestors in the Middle East, not all Jews do. Ashkenazi Jews share a small part of their paternal DNA with Near Eastern ancestors, while their maternal DNA is European. Not that DNA matters unless you want to argue ancestral claims. Ashkenazi Jews migrated to Israel after WW2. Were they natives? How about their children?
Circular semantics. You still have not defined "native". The vast majority of North Americans were born here and in one sense of the word, they are natives but they aren't
Natives (i.e. Aboriginal).
Words are slippery fishies.
I'd like to think we're past notions of blood purity here; however all Jews have genetic roots in Judea. And I think it's quite clear that I'm using native as a synonym for aboriginal and indigenous.
Nicker on 14/12/2023 at 21:29
Quote Posted by SD
Okay, well when Netanyahu gets voted out at the earliest opportunity, you'll see that it is in fact a democracy, won't you.
If he doesn't get to the courts first and install himself as a dictator. Nevertheless, it is how the Likud are behaving in THIS moment that matters, and under a state of emergency, his de-facto theocracy/autocracy will continue.
Quote Posted by SD
First off, I'm quite sure I didn't call everyone who disagreed with me an antisemite.
You, from #199 of the other thread; "If people can't accept that settlements and Likud and the rest of it are flimsy post hoc excuses to justify pre-existing antisemitism, then there's no reasoning with them."
Quote Posted by SD
As I say, there are only Semitic languages, not Semitic peoples.
(
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semite#:~:text=%3A%20a%20member%20of%20any%20of,people%20speaking%20a%20Semitic%20language) Oh... my bad?
Quote Posted by SD
I'd like to think we're past notions of blood purity here; however all Jews have genetic roots in Judea. And I think it's quite clear that I'm using native as a synonym for aboriginal and indigenous.
Then stop making the blood purity argument. Stop asserting that only Jews have sole claim to ancestry in that region.
Regardless, the region is presently cohabited by Jewish and Arab descendants of tribes which have intertwined claims and neither side is going anywhere, despite the best efforts of partisan fascist theists from both factions, to enforce a One State Solution.
Meanwhile the lopsided murder continues.
SD on 14/12/2023 at 23:12
Quote Posted by Nicker
You, from #199 of the other thread; "If people can't accept that settlements and Likud and the rest of it are flimsy post hoc excuses to justify pre-existing antisemitism, then there's no reasoning with them."
That's a post about Arab violence against Jews. What, other than wishful thinking, made you think I was talking about everyone who disagreed with me, rather than Arabs who are violent against Jews?
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people)
Semitic people or Semites is an obsolete term for an ethnic, cultural or racial group associated with people of the Middle East, including Arabs, Jews, Akkadians, and Phoenicians. The terminology is now largely unused outside the grouping "Semitic languages" in linguistics.Quote Posted by Nicker
Then stop making the blood purity argument. Stop asserting that only Jews have sole claim to ancestry in that region.
Regardless, the region is presently cohabited by Jewish and Arab descendants of tribes which have intertwined claims and neither side is going anywhere, despite the best efforts of partisan fascist theists from both factions, to enforce a One State Solution.
I said that Jews were indigenous inhabitants of that region, as are Bedouins and Samaritans. Most Palestinians have ancestry from further afield. All well-attested facts.
As I made clear in post #327 of that thread, the Palestinians are there now, so they also have a legitimate territorial claim. If only they'd not rejected the chance to have their own state on half a dozen occasions, they may have one now.
Starker on 26/2/2024 at 10:02
Shaun just dropped a massive hour and a half long video on the topic of Palestine, which tackles a wide variety of topics, from the history of Israel's colonial project to Israel's antisemitism against Jewish people to the fallacious idea of being able to teach moral lessons to people by making them suffer.
[video=youtube;3xottY-7m3k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xottY-7m3k[/video]
DuatDweller on 26/2/2024 at 18:45
I only have one point to make.
Hamas did their choice (to do harm) and Palestinians now have to live with the consequences of letting that group act to embrace blind hate.
Cipheron on 26/2/2024 at 23:00
That goes back to the point that Netenyahu himself had a big hand in boosting Hamas, bringing them to power and propping them up.
(
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Quote:
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces
The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
...
Toward the end of Netanyahu's fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.
Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.
Keep in mind what pouring work permits into areas controlled by Hamas effectively did. It meant that Hamas were the gatekeepers who decided who could get the good jobs that let you feed your family.
(
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000)
Full version of the last article: (
https://archive.ph/iFZnE)
Quote:
For 14 years, Netanyahu's policy was to keep Hamas in power; the pogrom of October 7, 2023, helps the Israeli prime minister preserve his own rule
...
For the last 14 years, while implementing a divide-and-conquer policy vis-a-vis the West Bank and Gaza, “Abu Yair” (“Yair's father,” in Arabic, as Netanyahu called himself while campaigning in the Arab community before one recent election) has resisted any attempt, military or diplomatic, that might bring an end to the Hamas regime.
In practice, since the Cast Lead operation in late 2008 and early 2009, during the Olmert era, Hamas' rule has not faced any genuine military threat. On the contrary: The group has been supported by the Israeli prime minister, and funded with his assistance.
And note, these are from the Times of Israel and Haaretz, not exactly anti-Israeli.
It's a toxic symbiotic relationship basically. Netenyahu got elected in the first place largely on the back of anti-Hamas sentiment, so basically supporting them over the Palestinian Authority allows him to keep getting elected and to break up the chances of any "two state" diplomatic solution.
However on the other hand, Hamas draw their legitimacy from Israel cracking down so if there isn't enough trouble with Israel, they needed to manufacture it.
It boils down to exactly why Netenyahu's party started pouring massive amounts of money into Hamas-controlled regions in 2021, and why Hamas responded the way they did.
Netenyahu was trying to keep both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas in power such that neither of them could work together. And the one he was required to prop up was always Hamas, with the amount of aid massively escalating in the 2 years before the current outbreak.
Keep in mind that Hamas has a very good chance of being completely destroyed by such a war. If the Gaza situation had been stable in the first place, and Hamas's power wasn't under threat, then it wouldn't have made sense for Netenyahu to pour all that money in, or for Hamas to even start the conflict.
demagogue on 26/2/2024 at 23:17
Quote Posted by DuatDweller
I only have one point to make.
Hamas did their choice (to do harm) and Palestinians now have to live with the consequences of letting that group act to embrace blind hate.
(1) Collective punishment is always illegal.
(2) The election was in 2006, 18 years ago. There's no viable popular mandate here.
(3) And even aside from that, your argument doesn't apply anyway when even an elected government starts committing rampant war crimes and human rights violations. They lose their legitimacy.
The fact that Palestine isn't a state hides the fact that elements like Hamas are an enemy of Palestine as a state. On the other hand, the fact that Israel is a state with effective control over Palestine is also hiding the fact that elements like Likud are also acting like an enemy of the state.
Nicker on 27/2/2024 at 05:52
Even if the fighting stopped today, the devastation is so immense, there is virtually nothing for Palestinian refugees to return to. No homes, hospitals, schools, infrastructure. Rebuilding will take generations and vast resources, which the refugees don't have.
But who does have those resources? The genocidal theocrats of the Likud party. How fucking convenient. "Excuse me but are you using this smouldering wasteland? No? So you don't mind if we move in?" Yes, I used the "g" word, and well deserved it is. Hamas were their useful idiots. The only miscalculation by Netanyahu was the scale of the initial terror attack. But he got his 'eye for a bucket of eyes'. A hundred of them for every one of us. Where did we hear that during the first half of the 20th Century?
Is "death to fascists" an oxymoron?
