demagogue on 19/10/2024 at 05:37
It's all in the results. The West gave West Germans liberal democracy. The Soviets gave East Germans a communist dictatorship. Israel gave Palestinians 80 years of statelessness and political non-existence. I think if a person had to choose between living in East Germany after the Soviet's occupation or Gaza after Israel's occupation, I'd bet they'd do better choosing East Germany, just in terms of their standard of living and prospects in life.
Are you going to tell me Gazans are responsible for the decrepit state of Gaza just like Germans were responsible for the decrepit state of East Germany? Never mind Palestinians living in Israel and Germans living in West Germany did just fine for themselves. It looks like being occupied by a state that truly despised its population had a lot more to do with it, the ones that called them "forever Nazis" that could never be trusted to rule themselves.
Tomi on 19/10/2024 at 07:34
Quote Posted by Tomi
If Mike Tyson is Israel in your comparison, and the Palestinians are these drunk and racist football fans
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
So Tomi, you think that Hamas, with their charter to kill all Jews worldwide, are being unfairly compared to drunk racists? Lol.
But you are comparing the Palestinians to Hamas again here, and while I don't know about you, at least I find it quite unfair.
Tomi on 19/10/2024 at 07:45
Quote Posted by SD
UNIFIL has one job - to disarm Hezbollah. How's that going, do you think?
True, from what I've read, their actions have been criticised a lot before, but Israel's way of handling these things doesn't seem right to me either. Your Hezbollah tunnel example of course sounds ridiculous if it's indeed true, but on the other hand these guys have no other option than to play by the rules that they're given.
I had to look up UNIFIL's purpose, and according to wikipedia their job is
"to confirm Hezbollah demilitarisation, support Lebanese army operations against insurgents and weapon smuggling, and confirming Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, in order to ensure that the government of Lebanon would restore its effective authority in the area." That's not exactly an easy mission, especially when they have to operate in between two warmongers.
Subjective Effect on 19/10/2024 at 12:51
Quote Posted by Tomi
But you are comparing the Palestinians to Hamas again here, and while I don't know about you, at least I find it quite unfair.
No, I'm usually talking about Hamas, even if I do say Palestinians sometimes.
Just like if people say "the Israelis" they usually mean the government and military, not the general civilian population.
SD on 19/10/2024 at 19:23
Quote Posted by demagogue
Israel gave Palestinians 80 years of statelessness and political non-existence
Not actually true, is it? Nobody gave them statelessness, they've always been stateless. There's never been a Palestinian state in history. It's been a possession of various empires for more than 2,000 years, the last independent state there was a Jewish one. They've rejected each and every attempt to give them a state of their own.
Not to mention that Israel didn't occupy Gaza or the West Bank until 1967. My mathematics isn't what it was, but I make that 57 years rather than 80. So why wasn't a Palestinian state created between 1948 and 1967, when those territories were firmly in the possession of Arabs (Egypt and Jordan respectively)?
demagogue on 20/10/2024 at 21:27
Because Egypt and Jordan aren't Palestinian. To respond more generally though, the effective occupying power has a large effect on the creation of statehood for a people in case after case. You're right the story is more nuanced. You'd want to walk through the period from the creation of the Transjordan mandate to the present step by step, area by area, to get a fuller picture.
Also, read the history of decolonizations from the 1940s through the 1960s if you're going to say anything about the creation of states. I'm not sure from your post that you even understand what a state is or where they come from.
Subjective Effect on 21/10/2024 at 03:36
So it only needs to be a Palestinian state when the Je Je Je Jews occupy it? Das ist faszinierend!
Starker on 21/10/2024 at 15:53
Jordan gave Palestinians in the occupied territory citizenship and half the seats in Parliament, so... sure, you could also do it that way, I suppose.
heywood on 21/10/2024 at 17:28
Obviously, this conflict isn't going to be resolved by reconciling the differing interpretations of history.
It's a war between Iran and Israel, with competing superpowers backing them. It will keep going until the superpowers can agree again. Then the parties who instigate the conflict on both sides, like the jihadi groups and the settler movement, have to lose their popular support, resources, and power. Making that happen will be the harder part. I don't expect a resolution for a long time. For now, I wish people outside of the conflict would stop adding oxygen to the fire.
Subjective Effect on 24/10/2024 at 06:34
Reconciliation will come when the leaders sit down together and talk about things.
I think in these conflicts the leaders should have to spend time on a desert island, working together to build shelter, find food and water, and survive.
I bet they'd realise that their differences are stupid.
Yes, just like in Enemy: Mine.
