Starker on 13/10/2024 at 22:11
This is the reality of native people everywhere. My people were under occupation for a long while and illegal settlers were brought here during that time even as my people were deported and driven to exile in great numbers, irrevocably altering the fabric of our society. But even though their existence is being used as a weapon by our neighbour, we recognise (well, at least most reasonable people do) that it would be unjust to simply uproot them after decades have passed. Not to mention that by now their children and grandchildren have been born here and this is the only place they have ever known. And one should always remember that the people are not necessarily to blame for the policies of a state, especially when they are used as a tool of the state.
Subjective Effect on 14/10/2024 at 05:05
Quote Posted by demagogue
It's not a viable solution to the situation. Or you tell me, what is the case for Israeli Jews leaving that we have to debate?
A third way I can put it is, if one's starting point to a political course of action is ethnic cleansing, it's not a serious proposal legitimate enough to even debate. One could try to talk about how Israel's situation is like the French in Algeria, but I don't think that kind of debate is going to go far if you get into any details.
I know it's not a viable solution, not without a second Holocaust anyway.
But that's what Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and thousands of people, including radical islamists and lefty loons, in the West want. We are having protests for Palestine all over the West and in those protests are a number of people who are openly pro-terror. They get arrested and everyone complains. Why? They also don't get forcibly removed from the protests by other protestors. Why? If I were on a peaceful pro-Israel protest and some asshats started chanting about how they want all Gazans killed/removed or pulled out placards supporting such you can bet I, and a lot of the other protestors, would be telling them to stfu or get out of our protest. That doesn't happen because they are all complicit.
"From the river to the sea" - which is often chanted by leftist idiots who don't know which river or sea it refers to - is not a benign chant. You can argue all you want that it's all about Palestinian freedom and not Jewish destruction, but that's not how Jews see it. In EVERY other case of similar - whether it concerns black people, women, transgender people - the general view is "believe them and don't say what THEY find offensive" but in this, it's okay to argue that "meeeeeeeh, that's not what it meeeeeeaaanss, seeee?". Why?
Are you seriously in any doubt at all, that if Hamas, Hezbollah and iran managed to defeat the IDF and occupy Israel that the Israeli Jews wouldn't survive?
The hilarious thing here is that this is all really driven by extremely radical Islamism, that is intolerant of almost everything at it's core, including all of you. But your extreme liberal politics can't see that after the Jews, you're next.
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Also, how many Palestinians have you ever actually personally talked to about it?
Wtf does this have to do with anything? I've been to Israel a few times and interacted with Palestinians Israelis there. But I guess they don't count, because they are normal non-insane people who live happily in the "Occupier Entity". I've also met a few Palestinians here in the UK and they were fairly chilled, more interested in peace and decrying the fact that extremists run their country. But so what?
SD on 14/10/2024 at 21:10
Quote Posted by Starker
This is not a "strictly legal viewpoint". It's a matter of settling people into occupied territories, something that's internationally recognised as a war crime, yes, but it's also a matter of displacing people who have lived on the land for generations and disrupting their society. How is it moral to colonise a land of people already living there just because your extremely distant ancestors have lived there thousands of years ago?
I didn't realise it was a game of musical chairs. But the original plan was never to displace anyone. The land was scheduled to be partitioned between the two people who lived there, but one side couldn't accept it, and has never been able to accept it.
Territorial gains have been made at the expense of Palestinians, after wars they started. They get it back when they make peace.
Quote Posted by Starker
we recognise (well, at least most reasonable people do) that it would be unjust to simply uproot them after decades have passed
And most Israeli Jews are decendants of Jews who were uprooted from other countries in the MENA, typically with only the possessions they could carry, stripped of landholdings amounting to four times the area of Israel.
Why is it only justice for the Palestinians? What about the Jews who lost four Israels' worth of land?
Starker on 15/10/2024 at 05:46
Justice isn't served by giving people someone else's land to replace what they have lost.
Also, you say that Palestinians will get their land back, but so far there doesn't seem to be anything that indicates it. Rather, it's the opposite. People who have fled the violence aren't allowed to return to their homes. More and more Palestinian land is taken and given to settlers. Building permits are handed out in extremely unequal fashion. Settlers also build unauthorized outposts that later get legalised. What realistic proposals are there on the table to give Palestinians their land back that they lost?
And there's the fact that Israel doesn't seem to be interested in peace when they deal with organisations like Hamas to delegitimise Palestinian aspirations for statehood. (
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
As was reportedly said by Mr Security at a Likud party conference: "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas... This is part of our strategy - to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."
Subjective Effect on 15/10/2024 at 06:09
Quote:
Justice isn't served by giving people someone else's land to replace what they have lost.
Agreed, but you do see the strange hypocrisy there, don't you?
The concept of land for peace has been around for decades. Israel keeps making offers and they are rejected. And then more violence comes.
How do you address the fact that is the Palestinians said "no more violence" and meant it there would be no more violence.
Starker on 15/10/2024 at 06:10
Also, there's this recent bit:
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(
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-07-03-2024-033deab379a16efdf9989de8d6eaf0f8)
Israel has approved the largest seizure of land in the occupied West Bank in over three decades, a settlement tracking group said Wednesday, a move that is likely to worsen already soaring tensions linked to the war in Gaza.
Israel's aggressive expansion in the West Bank reflects the settler community's strong influence in the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most religious and nationalist in the country's history. Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a settler himself, has turbocharged the policy of expansion, seizing new authorities over settlement development and
saying he aims to solidify Israel's hold on the territory and prevent the creation of a Palestinian state.
[...]
The newly seized land is in an area of the West Bank where, even before the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war, settler violence was displacing communities of Palestinians. That violence has only surged since Hamas' Oct. 7 attack ignited the war in Gaza. Settlers have carried out more than 1,000 attacks on Palestinians since October in the West Bank, causing deaths and damaging property, according to the U.N.
[...]
“We came to settle the land, to build it, and to prevent its division and the establishment of a Palestinian state, God forbid,” he said during the conference. He vowed to “change the map dramatically” by claiming more West Bank land than ever before as state land.
Starker on 15/10/2024 at 12:07
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
The concept of land for peace has been around for decades. Israel keeps making offers and they are rejected. And then more violence comes.
Let's not pretend that there aren't extremists in Israel either. Rabin wasn't assassinated by a Palestinian, if you remember.
Yet Israel keeps expanding their settlements while their politicians talk about how to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state. Don't you see that Israel uses the lack of peace as a justification to grab more and more land? The land itself has become an incentive to prevent peace.
Meanwhile, people advocating for peaceful protest and Gandhi-like nonviolent resistance get repressed, expelled, tortured, killed, making peaceful revolution all but impossible. Palestinan people are powerless to negotiate anything as long as Israel only recognises organisations like Hamas, but completely ignores people who have recognised Israel and sworn off violence.
"Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man. You take a step towards him, he takes a step back. Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man."
Subjective Effect on 15/10/2024 at 17:39
It's a little hard to not "recognise" Hamas when they are invading, killing, capturing and launching 1000s of rockets at you, lol.
There's loads of extremists in Israel, loads of hawks in the government and military. But they can only respond to violence and they are always given things to respond to. And they have become more hawkish because they are now sick to the back teeth of this Islamist bs. The more they are attacked the worse they will get. I do not put it past them to nuke somewhere, even if it's just a tactical nuke.
But the antagonists here are TERRORISTS. So why you blame Israel I do not know. Hamas et al are literally driven by murderous ideals. There's a very very very clear good side and bad side here.
Starker on 15/10/2024 at 18:32
I have given plenty of explanations why I blame Israel, but the short of it is just that I'm sick of the right wing goons escalating things and eroding whatever democracy is left. Israel building settlements, the constant violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, the right wing rabbis threatening violence if even an inch of land is given back, the genocidal rhetoric and policies that starve and kill Palestinians in Gaza... there's plenty that Israel is doing to prevent peace that mirrors what the extremists are doing on the other side.
And two of the things Israel is doing in particular -- preventing Palestinians from returning to their homes and building settlements in occupied lands -- are major obstacles to the peace process, not to mention illegal and condemned by the international community.
Subjective Effect on 16/10/2024 at 15:02
Can you explain more about Israel "stopping Palestinians returning to their homes"? Which homes, where, and who is in those homes right now?
Yes Israeli rhetoric is often, and increasingly, inflammatory. But you know what they don't do? Terrorist attacks in civilian populations with widespread dancing in the streets afterwards.
It's a completely different mentality and if Palestine stopped the violence THERE WOULD BE NO MORE VIOLENCE.
