Starker on 12/10/2024 at 06:41
As long as we are asking questions, here's one... Why are there hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers in occupied Palestinian territories?
Subjective Effect on 12/10/2024 at 07:04
I'm not in favour of that attack overall but that doesn't mean I think every single thing the IDF does is unreasonable. As long as they are they I expect them to conduct themselves properly and if they do they shouldn't be criticised for doing sensible things.
The idea that the IDF should just "go after Hamas" it's not reasonable. They have the ability to target enemies but not the time or resources to do that with every single enemy. Sometimes it's more pragmatic to bomb a building than to fire a laser guided missile at a car.
But I agree, Nicker, that Israel should just have gathered evidence after Oct 7th and tried diplomacy. I think they should have asked for help from their detractors with a deadline - help us stop these horrors or we will have no choice but to do it the unpleasant way. And then if you criticise what we doing you can shove it.
I've been in favour of Israeli evacuation of the West Bank for at least a decade btw. That's a land grab and it's only possible because of the ongoing conflicts. They use "security"as an excuse and Israeli behaviour in the WB is a stain on the nation.
Starker on 12/10/2024 at 07:29
It's not about whether to bomb a building or not, though. It's about using high yield explosives in densely populated urban areas and erasing entire neighbourhoods and residential areas in the process. It's about the widespread destruction that has displaced 1.9M people and targeted cultural sites and critical infrastructure alike. As well as some completely baffling targets. Like, what possible military value or benefit to the Israeli security is there in destroying Palestinian gravestones?
Subjective Effect on 12/10/2024 at 07:45
I've never seen this level of scrutiny of military action anywhere else. It's odd. I think the results are what's important, not the method. They aren't targeting civilians, they are targeting Hamas.
What explosives, exactly, are you talking about though?
Starker on 12/10/2024 at 16:11
Yes, I agree that it's the results that are important, so let's look at the results, shall we.
More children have been killed in Gaza by Israel than there have been in Ukraine by Russia in more than 2 years. And it's not just somewhat more or significantly more -- even according to most conservative counts it's the difference of an order of magnitude. And let's not forget that Russia is a country that casually bombs children's hospitals and maternity wards and drone-drops grenades on civilians in Kherson, so it's not like they are particularly concerned about civilian casualties. Many more children are missing in Gaza and presumed to be under the rubble or somewhere in mass graves.
More journalists have been killed in Gaza than in any modern war in history, including what can only be described as deliberate targeting of clearly marked press members.
People in Gaza are facing starvation and children are dying of malnutrition related complications due to there not being enough food. Most people are eating one meal every other day -- way less than is needed for survival, let alone staying healthy.
Disease is widespread due to the destruction of water and waste management systems in Gaza as well as the lack of hygiene products and medicine -- aid which is regularly blocked by Israel, including crucial items such as insulin.
Most houses in Gaza have been completely of partially destroyed. Likewise, most of the agricultural land has been degraded and the crop destroyed. Around 1.9 million people have been displaced from their homes. Some of them have been displaced over and over and over again. All in all, by tonnage, more bombs have been dropped on Gaza than were dropped on London and several largest German cities combined during the entire WW2.
Among the high yield explosives are for example 2000 pound bombs, such as the MK-84 that the US has forbidden their troops to use in urban areas, mainly due to their large blast and fragmentation radius causing an extraordinarily high number of casualties. These bombs flatten multiple buildings at once and cause lethal damage to anything around it in a radius of 120 meters (400 feet), with fragmentation being able to kill people and damage buildings up to three times further away.
The result of all this is a nothing short of a human catastrophe on a massive scale. And maybe you can claim that Israel isn't trying to deliberately target civilians in their bombing campaigns, that it has merely no regard to how many die in the process, but denying them food and medicine and causing starvation and disease is very directly targeting the civilian population. It has very little to no effect on Hamas who have stockpiled supplies for this occasion.
And we haven't even gotten into the destruction of Palestinian cultural heritage, such as the burning of libraries and the destruction of schools, universities, religious sites, archives, etc: (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_heritage_during_the_Israeli_invasion_of_the_Gaza_Strip)
Subjective Effect on 12/10/2024 at 16:47
Those comparisons with other conflicts are not relevant -they are not metrics or standards anyone is trying to stick to.
The rest of what you describe is why I've been opposed to this assault. I'm not defending the choice to attack the Strip, and I've said repeatedly (in this thread too) that I think there should be an immediate cease-fire.
It must be on both sides though and Hamas should surrender and return the hostages. Why is no one insisting on that? That would be the end of the conflict but the sick thing is "resistance" (actually terrorism) seems more important to the lefty loons than a ceasefire and peace.
As to cultural sites - the Palestinians don't care about anyone else's as demonstrated by past behaviour, so cry me a river.
Starker on 12/10/2024 at 17:14
These other conflicts are the only thing to put the devastation in perspective precisely because there really isn't anything quite that can compare to what's happening in Gaza.
Palestinians have cared to preserve other people's culture, including that of Christians and Romans. There are cemeteries where Jewish graves have been preserved and kept in good order. But in any case, the deliberate destruction of culture is a crime regardless of whether you think that the people as a whole "deserve it".
And not all of the cultural heritage destroyed in Gaza belongs exclusively to the Palestinians:
Quote:
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Porphyrius)
The church was again used as refuge for hundreds of civilians during the 2023-24 Israel-Hamas war. In October 2023, it was the site of an airstrike by the Israeli Air Force, which hit two halls sheltering Gazan Palestinian Muslims and Christians, causing the collapse of at least one building, and killed between 16-18 civilians. The church was attacked again in July 2024.
Hamas should absolutely return the hostages. Taking of hostages is a war crime. But Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Taking hostages and committing other terrorist attacks is their MO. Israel, on the other hand, is held to higher standards because it is a state and moreover ostensibly still a democratic one. But maybe you are right and Israel shouldn't really be held to any high standards. Maybe we shouldn't think of Israel as we would of modern Western countries and should treat it more like Russia and Iran.
Subjective Effect on 12/10/2024 at 19:30
The reason we should think of Israel differently is because they are not in a conflict with a comparable opposite. Ones doesn't expect an MMA fighter to fight according to UFC rules if they are assaulted by 2 armed assailants who want to kill them and not just submit/knock them out a la in the Octagon.
The Palestinians have no respect for Jewish cultural heritage at all. They may not destroy absolutely everything but they will (
https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-810013) smash anything they don't like or want or even consider blasphemous.
And let us (
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-61040362) not forget this.
demagogue on 12/10/2024 at 20:07
A nuclear armed state with military spending 2.5 times the entire GDP of Palestinians vs. the 148th lowest GDP territory on the planet below Togo and New Caledonia aren't "comparable opposites" because the Palestinians are the unfairly overpowered ones? Surely you're joking.
Subjective Effect on 12/10/2024 at 21:18
I didn't say that, did I?
But weave whatever straw man you like.
