Subjective Effect on 11/10/2024 at 22:41
So that's from the Gaza Ministry of Health. I don't believe them and why on earth would you?
It seems that the reporting is (
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable) incredibly unreliable. Have a look at methodologies section.
(
https://www.thearticle.com/mortality-in-gaza-lies-and-statistics) And this breaks down, and breaks, the MoH logic.
I quote (emphasis mine):
Quote:
“Taken together,” Wyner continues, “Hamas is reporting not only that 70% of casualties are women and children but also that 20% are fighters. This is not possible unless Israel is somehow not killing noncombatant men,
or else Hamas is claiming that almost all the men in Gaza are Hamas fighters.”
Vooops! But they keep saying it's civilian males that are being killed!
Quote:
“It turns out this ‘70 per cent' figure
is contradicted by the statistics that the MoH itself provides in its own reports. I
t is a disinformation tool founded on statistical manipulation rather than realities on the ground. The BBC ‘factcheckers' and other western media could easily have determined this for themselves, using publicly available information.”
Starker on 11/10/2024 at 23:06
As the identities of the identified casualties are known, they can be independently corroborated.
Quote:
Despite known problems with the MOH central collection system (outlined in more detail in the author's January study), it is the more reliable methodology because it involves identity verification and counting of actual bodies.
Obviously, media has a bias in reporting and any media reports are pretty much unusable to be used as data.
But yes, as I said, we just don't know. The data is limited, there is fog of war, and the conflict is still ongoing.
Also, it should be noted that the reason the data has become increasingly unreliable is because of the widespread destruction in Gaza. As hospitals and morgues get destroyed, as the vast majority of people in Gaza have become displaced, the identification and counting of the dead has become increasingly difficult.
Starker on 11/10/2024 at 23:56
For more information about the difficulties in counting the dead, here's one article:
Quote:
(
https://aoav.org.uk/2024/inside-gazas-graveyard-uncovering-the-complexities-of-casualty-recording-amidst-conflict/)
[...]
Zaher Al Wahaidi, Director of the MoH's Health Information Centre (HIC), provided Sky News with new insights into these operational difficulties. Before the recent escalation in hostilities, the HIC maintained a robust, real-time computer network that tracked deaths across hospitals in Gaza. This system, which had proven accurate during previous conflicts, was praised for its reliability, with figures that closely matched those later produced by the UN and the Israel Defence Forces (IDF).
However, this system collapsed following Israeli raids on key hospitals in Gaza City last November, which destroyed critical data centres and severed vital connections to Gaza's civil registry. This breakdown forced the MoH to rely on outdated, manual methods for recording deaths, further complicating efforts to provide accurate casualty data amidst the chaos.
Challenges in Data Recording and Identification
In the southern regions of Gaza, hospitals lost access to the national database of names, ID numbers, and birth dates. This meant that every new entry had to be manually logged, a process prone to human error. Thousands of ID numbers, names, and birth dates were either missing or incorrectly entered, adding to the confusion and difficulty of maintaining an accurate death registry. In the northern regions, the situation was even more dire; there were no computer systems available, and hospital staff relied on pens and paper to record the details of the deceased. When the hospitals were overwhelmed with casualties, even this basic method proved impossible.
Instead, a simple headcount was taken by hospital spokespersons, and bodies were tagged and photographed for potential later identification. This rudimentary method led to a rapid increase in the number of unidentified fatalities. In March, for example, 81% of all new additions to the death toll were unidentified. The health ministry's reports attributed these body counts to “reliable sources,” a term which had previously been mistranslated as “reliable media sources.”
[...]
Subjective Effect on 12/10/2024 at 04:54
You're not disagreeing with me here. The MoH data is not reliable, for several reasons. Some of those are secondary to Israeli actions for sure, but you can still not say that the MoH data is reliable. The fact that they lie on top of it, further obfuscating the truth, should be condemned and not supported by pedalling their bs as you have been doing.
We've moved topic several times and I'd like to go back to something from earlier in the thread. I've made it clear that I do not support the Israeli attack on Gaza and think there should be a ceasefire.
But I have two questions.
1. What do you think Israel should have done after Oct 7th?
2. What do you think should happen, right now?
Nicker on 12/10/2024 at 04:58
Quote:
I've made it clear that I do not support the Israeli attack on Gaza and think there should be a ceasefire.
Before or after all the ambulances have been bombed? How can you be in favour of a ceasefire when you still seem to only recognize war crimes on one side?
Quote:
These are the fevered frothings of haters, really.
Are you calling me anti-Semitic? Read the title of this thread.
Quote:
Do you have any idea who these people are?
Yes, on both sides. It's in the title of this thread.
Quote:
Did you not see the videos from Oct 7th.
Yes, and decades of videos before that and centuries of history before that. Thus the title of this thread.
Quote:
You guys were probably in the group that were appalled the IDF dressed as medical staff and not appalled at the reason they needed to do that.
Stop telling me what I think when you haven't even read and understood the title of this thread.
Read the title of this thread.
Nicker on 12/10/2024 at 05:21
Quote:
But I have two questions.
Improve their defences and intel. Infiltrate and distrupt Hamas. Negotiate for release of the hostages. Use the atrocities to get the world on it's side, seeking for a meaningful, long-term two-state solution to hostilities. Behave like adults.
2. What do you think should happen, right now?Stop escalating. Stop invading more countries. Stop murdering civilians. Find a two-state solution. Stop believing that god gave them permission.
Or how about, what should Likud have done before Oct 7th?Stopped the slow-burn escalation, occupation and terrorism. Seek real resolution in the form of a two state solution. Jaw jaw jaw, not war war war. Remove Netanyahu's criminal gang and the religious fascists from the Israeli government. Don't use Israeli citizens as bait to provoke a Hamas attack and create justification for all out war.
SD on 12/10/2024 at 05:25
It's all very well trying to both sides this, but Arabs have been killing Jews long before 1948, long before Balfour, long before "apartheid" and "blockades" or any of the other post hoc justifications that keep being invoked.
Just stop killing Jews. It's that easy. Most other places have managed it.
Nicker on 12/10/2024 at 05:27
[video=youtube;LoTe-MIYyQw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoTe-MIYyQw[/video]
Nicker on 12/10/2024 at 05:45
Quote:
It's all very well trying to both sides this, but Arabs have been killing Jews long before 1948,
It's all very well putting a
1948 no-blame before date on things, but the inter-tribal wars in that region have been going on for millennia. The Brits just took advantage of the old rivalries, like they did during the partition of India, creating arbitrary, artificial territories and reigniting old feuds. Ultimately they assuaged their guilt over allowing the Holocaust in Europe by exporting it to the outskirts of what they considered civilization. You know, where the coloured people live.
But all that's beside the point. I'll say it again. There's no point in laying blame, only in accepting responsibility for a solution.
If a madman sets fire to your house, you don't stay put, waiting for the arsonist to fess up.
Starker on 12/10/2024 at 06:32
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
You're not disagreeing with me here. The MoH data is not reliable, for several reasons. Some of those are secondary to Israeli actions for sure, but you can still not say that the MoH data is reliable. The fact that they lie on top of it, further obfuscating the truth, should be condemned and not supported by pedalling their bs as you have been doing.
I'm not peddling any bullshit here. Where in the thread or the previous thread have you seen me quoting specific numbers from MoH? Also, where I am relying on data, I am using only the most conservative, most reliable data available that can be independently verified at least to some extent. Nevertheless, it's fairly certain that tens of thousands of civilians have died in Gaza and that a vast majority of its infrastructure has been destroyed, including places of very limited military value, such as cemeteries: (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_razing_of_cemeteries_and_necroviolence_against_Palestinians)
Also, all
you have done is try to downplay the civilian casualties any way you can. It's not an established fact that the MoH numbers are completely unreliable and I've outlined the problems with data collection above. Nevertheless, your article claims without any grounds that the MOH relies on media reports for their numbers and should therefore be not trusted whereas it has become clear that it's relying on a mistranslation of “reliable media sources" where "reliable sources" was meant instead and hospital spokespeople and media figures merely helped count the dead due to personnel shortages.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
1. What do you think Israel should have done after Oct 7th?
2. What do you think should happen, right now?
1. They should have gone after Hamas, instead of waging collective punishment on all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. They have demonstrated that they have the capability of a more targeted approach. They just choose not to.
2. There is very little Israel can do any more to rectify the situation, but they could start by allowing medicine and food into Gaza in quantities sufficient to prevent the most catastrophic outcomes.
