Subjective Effect on 30/9/2024 at 16:17
Likud are not the overarching architects of Israel. The Middle East is at war for territory and power. Sometimes that power is wielded through theocrats, sometimes not .
Starker on 30/9/2024 at 16:29
Territory definitely plays into it more, in my view. The concept of Greater Israel is central to this whole conflict. This is why you see illegal settlements being built and Palestinian areas being flooded with hundreds of thousands of settlers. This is why Israel doesn't allow Palestinians to return to their homes. This is why building permits are given out in an unequal fashion. The Torah is used for the rhetoric, sure, and to whip up the fanatics, but the central issue is that Israel doesn't want Palestinians on what they view as the land of their ancient forefathers.
Even at the founding, territory was central to the Zionist movement:
Quote:
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Ben-Gurion_letter)
"This is because this increase in possession is of consequence not only in itself, but because through it we increase our strength, and every increase in strength helps in the possession of the land as a whole. The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country."
heywood on 30/9/2024 at 17:23
I think these are naive and superficial responses. Of course they are fighting over control of territory. That's what a war is.
But why are there two parties to begin with and what defines and differentiates them? Why do they think they have a right to the territory? What makes people across the world with no connection to the Middle East move to Israel? What is behind the Sunnis and Shiites warring with each other all over the region?
It's all coming from religion and it's not going to be worked out or settled until the religious motivations behind it are gone or at least well suppressed by secular governments. I see no hope for secular government in Iran during my lifetime, and neither do most people. I think there is hope for Israel, but not with the right wing government that has controlled the country for the last 15 years.
SD on 30/9/2024 at 18:47
Quote Posted by heywood
What makes people across the world with no connection to the Middle East move to Israel?
I'd say Jews have quite a big connection with the Middle East. It's where they came from.
Harvester on 30/9/2024 at 20:38
Quote Posted by heywood
But why are there two parties to begin with and what defines and differentiates them?
Different heritage, these have been separate people since before the birth of Christ. According to the Bible since Abrahamic times.
Quote Posted by heywood
Why do they think they have a right to the territory?
The Palestinians have lived there for centuries and the Jews for centuries before that and also concurrently with the forebears of the Palestinians.
Quote Posted by heywood
What makes people across the world with no connection to the Middle East move to Israel?
Seriously, you're saying that about the Jews? They have a long history there and it was decided by international parties that they could live there after WW2.
Quote Posted by heywood
What is behind the Sunnis and Shiites warring with each other all over the region?
You could attribute that all to religion and I'm not denying that plays a part but the Shiite Persians of Iran and Sunni Arabs of elsewhere in the Middle East have been separate people since centuries. So tribal/heritage reasons also play a part.
Quote Posted by heywood
It's all coming from religion and it's not going to be worked out or settled until the religious motivations behind it are gone or at least well suppressed by secular governments. I see no hope for secular government in Iran during my lifetime, and neither do most people.
For the record, I wish for more freedom for the Iranian people too. You see these photos from before the Islamic Revolution, and people then clearly had more freedom to be themselves back then even though the Shahs were dictators.
Look, to illustrate my point of view, there are a lot of struggles in a lot of counties in Africa. You and Nicker might attribute that to backwards religion which we'd better get rid of. And again, I'm not saying it's not a contributing factor. Like in Nigeria and other countries in the West Sahel, Muslim Fulani shepherds are killing Christian farmers from another tribe. But that didn't happen before and can more accurately be attributed to global warming, the grass fields that animals eat are drying out and the more fertile lands of the farmers are looking mighty attractive. Now those shepherds might be using religious arguments to stir up their own forces, but it's not the main cause of the conflict.
My brother-in-law has spent a few months in Ghana. It's a developing country but most people have enough to eat to get by. Christians, Muslims and people with traditional African religions mostly live peacefully together. Now if there was a long-term drought or flood and people were starving, that might change when people start to fight for food. And they would probably talk about holy wars, say Allahu Akbar and Death to the Infidels and such. But that wouldn't be the cause of the conflict of course, to think so THAT would be naive. Do you really think the Isrealis and the Arab Palestinians and other Arab countries would be so at each other's throats if the Palestians could live free, peaceful lives and the Israelis weren't hit by rockets, do you still think they would continue their feuds this fervently just because they are of different religions? Religion may help put already aggravated masses into a frenzy but the root cause is a lack of safety and freedom.
Look, I'm not blind to negative effects of organized religion. But I'm saying that if people of different religions in the same region are safe and have enough to eat, they might maybe live mostly separate lives and there might be a little mistrust, but by and large they're not going at each others throats like that. When they are, mostly the root cause is not religion itself but an underlying issue, where I admit religion is used as a tool to whip up the masses. I wish for more secular government in Israel and Iran too, but secular governments can also derail like we see in China and North Korea.
heywood on 30/9/2024 at 21:05
Quote Posted by SD
I'd say Jews have quite a big connection with the Middle East. It's where they came from.
By that logic, all 4.5 billion Christians and Muslims also came from the Middle East. And well, every one of us on Earth came from Africa.
heywood on 30/9/2024 at 21:12
Quote Posted by Harvester
Look, to illustrate my point of view, there are a lot of struggles in a lot of counties in Africa. You and Nicker might attribute that to backwards religion which we'd better get rid of.
Yes, many of the current conflicts in Africa are due to the expansionist efforts of militant brands of Islam. And I don't seek to get rid of religion. I'm very much a supporter of religious liberty. My wish is for theocrats not to be in control of nation states.
Harvester on 30/9/2024 at 21:35
On that much we can agree. Unlike some atheists I know and am even friends with, I believe religious people can be active in politics, but I prefer them to be voices among other voices in secular democracies, and not theocracies, because in theocracies, people not of the dominant religion will often be worse off. But when saying that, I would also like to say that religious people and other dissenters are worse off in some secular nations like China and North Korea and several historical regimes I could mention.
SD on 1/10/2024 at 02:37
Quote Posted by heywood
By that logic, all 4.5 billion Christians and Muslims also came from the Middle East. And well, every one of us on Earth came from Africa.
Well, no, because Christians and Muslims aren't an ethnicity. This is the commonest misconception of who "Jews" are. First and foremost it is a tribe and nation of people, in the same manner as the Navajo or Maori. And while many members of the tribe follow the traditional tribal religion of Judaism, many do not, including at least three Prime Ministers of Israel who were openly atheist. It is not possible to fully understand Israel unless you appreciate that what you are dealing with is a vast extended family rather than a strictly religious association.
Nicker on 1/10/2024 at 13:02
It doesn't matter to me what people believe about gods and reality, when they do so in their own place on their own time. But it does matter when those beliefs spill out and are used to justify atrocities, like these wars.
In wartime, religion is more often an accelerant than a cause. It justifies the atrocities of both sides as being sanctioned by god, despite the inconvenient fact that the same god, we are told, supports both sides.
The other inflammatory mind-crime that religion commits, is belief in an afterlife, devaluing this life with the promise of the next, an eternity where the children of god will party and the enemies will suffer. Convincing people that an eternal reward awaits those willing to give their own life while taking another, is immoral gasoline on an irrational fire.
Fear. The mind killer.
There are two main causes for wars, disputes over resources and the ego aspirations of psychopaths, who often see themselves as either the agents of god, or simply behave like gods themselves. While both of these are normally part of the mix, to some degree or another, they are still separate ingredients.
When actual threats to resources don't exist, the self-deified psychopaths create that threat in the minds of their followers. And when there are real resource issues, they exploit them for violence.
If a fraction of the middle east war efforts had been directed to desalination plants, reforestation and agriculture, the only thing to fight about would be gods and that can be done over dinner.
