Subjective Effect on 28/9/2024 at 17:11
I don't know what you're talking about re: "my" one state solution. I'm all for a two state solution, peace, and the total withdrawal of all Israel "settlers" from the West Bank though.
And FYI was totally against the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip after Oct 07th precisely because I knew what the civilian death toll would be, especially as the Israel chat spaces were talking in terms of a massive reprisal which has happened, and I think there should be a ceasefire.
But tell me more about how Likud wants to eliminate Arabs. I've never heard this. I've heard a lot of things, but not this. I mean, Likud havs had Arab (Druze) members before so ��
Nicker on 28/9/2024 at 17:38
Ok, S.E.. My bad. But it does sound like you are trying to pin the problem on one side, in that quote. I apologize if/that I misread your post.
Likud just declared an expansion of their final solution to the Palestine Problem by expanding their aggression to Lebanon. Regardless of the past, modern Likud under, Netanyahu, is seeking a One State solution and that can only be achieved by eliminating all the competition in the region. They just extended the boundaries of that region and there is no reason to believe they will stop at Lebanon, just like there is no reason to believe that they will suddenly stop targeting civilians or committing atrocities. Likud might not have an overt doctrine of eliminating Arabs but Netanyahu's choices and actions require their elimination to achieve peace on his terms.
That said, I know that Hamas and their ilk would love to commit their own atrocities on a similar scale but simply lack the means at present.
The Children of Abraham, acting like teenagers for 5,000 years.
Starker on 28/9/2024 at 17:53
Likud, if you can believe it or not, are the moderates in Israel (they actually used to be center right before they took a more radical turn). But they cast their lot with even more radical parties whose rhetoric has been pretty much unchecked. Amichay Eliyahu from Jewish Power, for example, has called for the use of nuclear bombs. Smotrich from Religious Zionist has called for flooding Palestinian territories with Jewish settlers. Giora Eiland, the former head of the Security Council, has called for the use of biological warfare to kill off Palestinians with disease.
But the current tactic that's actually being employed seems to be to block food, medicine and hygiene products from reaching the population in Gaza to the point that the average Gazan only gets to eat one meal every other day, tens of thousands of children require treatment for malnutrition, and disease outbreaks are rampant.
Subjective Effect on 28/9/2024 at 17:56
That's a wild conspiracy theory though. Even Bibi doesn't want Lebanon. What Israelis really want is peace on their terms, which means dividing the land up how they want. That means annexing large parts of the West Bank at least, and that's because there are factions that believe it is owed them being at the old name of a lot of it is Judea.
But I do believe that the main problem is the Islamic terrorism. If there were no attacks from the Gaza Strip, if Hamas had built up the nation instead of using millions to arm and build a tunnel network, Israel would have nothing to fight against. And they'd actually like that.
As to Lebanon - it's 100% the fault of Hizbollah. I fully support everything Israel is doing there, including the pager and radio attacks which were probably the most targeted attacks in human history. Hizbollah are a bunch of maniacs who attached Israel on Oct 8th totally unprovoked. I've no sympathy for them and a huge number of Lebanese and other Arabs will be very pleased with Israel's actions against them. They are Iranian puppets and no better than the Waffen SS. You wouldn't be upset if they got pager bombs to the face, would you?
I don't know how little don't get it. Don't attack Israel and Israel won't attack you. Simple.
Nicker on 29/9/2024 at 21:14
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I fully support everything Israel is doing there, including the pager and radio attacks which were probably the most targeted attacks in human history.
O.K. So bombs randomly exploding in markets and cafes is number one on your top-ten most surgical assassination tactics? I hope you do not own firearms or operate them in public places, if that is your definition of targeted.
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I'm all for a two state solution, peace, and the total withdrawal of all Israel "settlers" from the West Bank though.
Now I am confused again, because the "settlement" of the West bank is a huge part of Likud's policy of provocation, a kind of gradual, gentle terrorism. A few homes here, an adult or child "terrorist" there. Midnight arrests, disappearances, enhanced interrogations. Likud calculated that eventually Hamas would strike back and give them the justification to go scorched earth on innocent people in Gaza. And Likud knowingly and willingly sacrificed its own, innocent Israeli citizens to create that narrative.
And now Likud is attacking Yemen.
How can you get a two state solution when you keep adding new enemy states to the other side of the equation? You can see why I mistook you for a One Stater.
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I've no sympathy for them and a huge number of Lebanese and other Arabs will be very pleased with Israel's actions against them.
Because we all know that the best way to generate sympathy for our cause is to randomly explode bombs in public places.
Subjective Effect on 29/9/2024 at 23:54
Quote Posted by Nicker
O.K. So bombs randomly exploding in markets and cafes is number one on your top-ten most surgical assassination tactics?
This is highly disingenuous. The bombs were not "random" but were small focused explosions highly likely to injure only the person carrying them, and those people were in Hizbollah's command structure because that is who ordered the pagers. It was extremely well targeted and you can tell this because even Hizbollah have not tried to spin it that 100s of civilians were killed or injured, because they weren't. Yes, there were a few civilian casualties but for almost 3000 bombs it was a tiny, tiny number of innocent people that were affected compared to the number of actual Hizbollah. Even the Hizbollah themselves have said the pagers belonged to "to employees of various Hezbollah units and institutions". You can google that EXACT statement to find the source, which is Hizbollah.
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Now I am confused again, because the "settlement" of the West bank is a huge part of Likud's policy of provocation, a kind of gradual, gentle terrorism.
Yes, the West Bank behaviour is ridiculous and criminal. But the way to stop it is not to launch attacks on Israel, it's to make peace and then talk about it. The land theft should be condemned but you can only stop it when there is peace and Israel no longer has the excuse of "security" to raid, displace and set up new walls and rules to restrict the Palestinians.
To be fair to them though, I think they've had enough now and might want to just get all the Palestinians out. If a peace isn't found that'll be what happens eventually anyway. A peaceful solution would be better of course, because living side by side in peace is the right thing to do.
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And now Likud is attacking Yemen.
No, it's attacking Houthi rebels in Yemen, who have been attacking Israel totally unprovoked.
Come on man, stop this propaganda bs.
Harvester on 30/9/2024 at 08:17
Quote Posted by Nicker
Is Hamas evil for deliberately targeting civilians? Absolutely. Is Likud evil for deliberately targeting civilians? Absolutely. Do both sides believe that they are divinely justified to commit such atrocities, in the name of the same god? ABSOLUTELY! Is that the stupidest, most evil excuse ever invented by our species? ABSOLUTELY.
Will the violence end, while superstitious thugs, who believe in magical sky beings, are allowed to have political power? No fucking way.
Christo-Fascists, Islamo-Fascists and the biblical grand daddy of them all, Judeo-Fascists, are all one family, Abrahamic-Fascists. They have been a shit stain on humanity for millennia and their blood soaked daddy-god delusion shows no sign of waning. They will burn this life to ashes while praying and murdering in hopes of the next, of a final battle and a final reward which never has and never will arrive.
It's convenient to blame the conflict on religion, and while it plays its part, I think the core of the matter is that people just want a safe place to live without being oppressed and having to live in fear. Sure, they will invoke their deities when fighting for their cause but I don't think religion is the cause of the conflict or that it would be magically gone without these people being religious. Kind of the same as with the IRA troubles, sure the fighting parties were either protestant or catholic but it's all too convenient to label that as the cause of the conflict. Also like what's happening in Sudan, where muslims with Arab origins are killing black muslims. Both are muslim and they might invoke Allah for their cause but it's really more of a tribal conflict.
These types of conflicts might be less heated without religion as a factor, but there's no guarantee people would live in peace without religion. I refer you to the atrocities committed by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Kims, etc. For the record, I'm not saying atheism is the cause of those conflicts, but rather that people will always find an excuse to bash each other's head in, even without religion.
This is just my opinion on these matters, I will state this once but I don't want to derail the thread, it should remain about the Israel-Palestine conflict and not a general discussion about the evils and virtues of religion.
Subjective Effect on 30/9/2024 at 10:06
Yes, I agree. Most of these things are war for territory and control. They seem quite ungodly in fact.
heywood on 30/9/2024 at 13:37
The conservative and orthodox Jews who make up Likud believe the territories are theirs because God gave it to them. Why do you suppose Iran is waging a war against a country that it doesn't border and isn't directly threatened by? Why do you suppose Jews and evangelical Christians around the world support Israel? The Middle East is always at war because it's full of theocracies. This is ALL about religion.
Harvester on 30/9/2024 at 15:32
I think it's mostly about a safe place to live for the Jews who protect the safe haven they were offered after WW2, and the Palestinians fighting back against being oppressed. Sure, people with the same religion or semi-adjacent religion will support their brethren, like the Evangelical Christians and such and the members of other Arab nations who are angry at the treatment of the Palestinians. However if they were able to somehow work out this conflict, a lot of the hate in the region would simmer down I think, or at least not evolve into action. Back when things were a little more peaceful, there were talks and trade negotiations going on between Israel and Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Some people will remain islamophobes or antisemites but if there's no real reason to be angry at either party because everyone gets a fair treatment these will be mostly beliefs at the personal level and the occasional demonstration instead of turning into action like we see now. I think at the core it's about people wanting to have a safe place to live, not the direct application of Torah or Quran verses that lies at the center of this conflict. People will quote those verses and invoke their Gods to support their cause, but when everyone feels and is safe and can provide for themselves people we would see less hate between different population groups. Everyone drags their religion into it but at the basic level people want to feel safe, be treated fairly, and make a living for themselves.
A bit of a messy post which could be worded better but I'm strapped for time.
Summary: religion can be and is a catalyst in this conflict, but at the heart it’s a territorial conflict.
