Innocent People in the Middle East, Victimized by Fascist Theocrats

Starker on 26/9/2024 at 20:11

So, when Israel bombed that refugee camp and killed over a 100 civilians, did it warn anyone beforehand? Did it carefully plan the strike to keep the civilians killed at about 100?

You are likewise ignoring many of the points I have presented, most of which was sourced from independent groups and Israeli organisations like B'Tselem. Approximately 0% of my information comes from Arabic or Palestinian sources (if there is any at all, then it's maybe a very rare article from Al Jazeera I happen to stumble upon). I predominantly read Israeli and international media when it comes to the conflict.

For example, how about the torture in Israel's prisons? Do you think a musician deserves to have his ribs fractured and his hearing permanently damaged while detained without any charges for months? Was he a Hamas musician?

What about the widespread destruction of the infrastructure, including cultural heritage and religious sites such as cemeteries? Israel has dropped several times more bombs on Gaza than was dropped on any one city in WW2. Here's an article, for example, where you can see the devastation in satellite photos, including entire residential areas and farmland: (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006607)

What about the number of journalists killed being more than in any war in history?

What about 83% of required aid being blocked by Israel while there is dangerous levels of malnutrition, starvation, and a severe lack of medicine? Israeli officials have made statements of killing off Palestinians with hunger and disease. So far, it very much looks like their plan is working.

To be clear, I in no way condone anything Hamas has done and consider their methods despicable. But I likewise consider mass killings of civilians despicable. Especially when Israel has now demonstrated that it can use more targeted attacks when it wants to, as happened in the recent waves of terrorist attacks in Lebanon when they set off bombs in buses, streets, and people's homes, but kept the number of dead and injured bystanders far lower than in Gaza, primarily targeting Hezbollah military members and its civilian operations.

As for warning people before the strikes, if they are targeting Hamas and only Hamas, as you say, why would Israel warn the enemy? Would that not be counterproductive? In fact, reports from Gaza seem to indicate that Israel is in fact not doing that:(https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-10-11-23#h_b213ec9e2882bc819f20cb6a96bcec92)

Also, if someone gave you a few minutes of warning before destroying your home, let's say by dropping something on the roof of your home, how many members of your family do you think you could gather and get to a safe distance in that short of a time?

SD on 26/9/2024 at 20:44

I've noted that in a number of these strikes, particularly where refugee camps are concerned, it's not the initial Israeli attack which has caused the majority of casualties, but secondary explosions from ammo dumps. The questions I'd be asking is why do Hamas hide among civilian refugees, and why do they store munitions in refugee camps.

Similarly, when juvenile militants are killed. The real scandal is in the arming of children in the first place, because with the best will in the world, no military is going to wait to see an enemy combatant's birth certificate.

However, the biggest issue when bombs are falling is often not what happens above ground, but what is below it. Since Gaza is absolutely riddled with tunnels, even an airstrike some distance away can bring down numerous buildings, because that's gravity. And when you consider how many of these tunnels are also booby-trapped with explosives... well.

Qooper on 26/9/2024 at 21:33

Quote Posted by Starker

So, when Israel bombed that refugee camp and killed over a 100 civilians, did it warn anyone beforehand? Did it carefully plan the strike to keep the civilians killed at about 100?

The IDF was after a key Hamas commander named Ibrahim Biari. The IDF probably chose a moment that would result in the maximum probability of taking him out with the minimum amount of civilian casualties. But it is nonetheless horrible. All civilian deaths are tragic.

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You are likewise ignoring many of the points I have presented, most of which was sourced from independent groups and Israeli organisations like B'Tselem.

Not having yet answered is not the same as ignoring. At that point my attention went to your attempt at elevating yourself above me morally, and I had to call you out. Up until that point, I carefully responded to all of your eight questions. I also asked you a question to which you still haven't responded: "It is not by any means an easy situation for Israel, as their enemy won't rest until Israel has been wiped off the face of the Earth. How do you deal with that?" You probably know that in the Hamas Covenant it says to destroy Israel and kill all Jews. For example in Article 7, it says: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." And you know that in 1948, Israel was willing to accept the partition plan, a two-state solution, but the Arabs rejected it and five surrounding Arab nations declared war on Israel. So I ask my question again, what do you say Israel should do? What would you do in Israel's place?

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Approximately 0% of my information comes from Arabic or Palestinian sources (if there is any at all, then it's maybe a very rare article from Al Jazeera I happen to stumble upon). I predominantly read Israeli and international media when it comes to the conflict.

Maybe you tell the truth, or maybe you're exaggerating, I don't know. Be that as it may, could you give me a link to the article on Israel's claim that there is around 200 Hamas child soldiers? To strengthen your credibility.

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For example, how about the torture in Israel's prisons? Do you think a musician deserves to have his ribs fractured and his hearing permanently damaged while detained without any charges for months? Was he a Hamas musician?

Based on all of my replies (assuming you've read them all), you know my thoughts. Torturing innocent civilians is wrong. Further than that, I cannot say until I've read more about this particular case.

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As for warning people before the strikes, if they are targeting Hamas and only Hamas, as you say, why would Israel warn the enemy? Would that not be counterproductive? In fact, reports from Gaza seem to indicate that Israel is in fact not doing that:(https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-10-11-23#h_b213ec9e2882bc819f20cb6a96bcec92)

Also, if someone gave you a few minutes of warning before destroying your home, let's say by dropping something on the roof of your home, how many members of your family do you think you could gather and get to a safe distance in that short of a time?

You can think about this yourself, you don't need me to explain to you how that works. It is a dilemma for Israel: they want to take out the Hamas fighters along with the launchers, yet they want to save civilian lives (and I know you don't believe Israel cares about civilians, so is it pointless for me to give you a serious answer?). These two goals are mutually exclusive. As a result the IDF has to make difficult decisions weighing a number of variables, including the target value, civilian count, damage to infra, etc. In a very densely populated urban area, such as Gaza, it is impossible to prevent all civilian casualties. And also, such a large percentage of the population being children, it is impossible to avoid innocent children from dying.

I'll take a look at the points I haven't yet answered, and I'd appreciate it if you could give my question a fair treatment and write me your thoughts on the matter. Thanks.

Starker on 27/9/2024 at 03:42

Quote Posted by Qooper

So I ask my question again, what do you say Israel should do? What would you do in Israel's place?

When the IRA set off bombs in the UK, do you think a good solution would have been to bomb Irish cities and kill any IRA members they could possibly get their hands on without any regard to civilian casualties? You know how the lyrics go to this?

On that early August morning they kicked in our back door
but for every man they took away, they missed a hundred more.

What Israel is doing now, this does not end Hamas. In the very best (fairly unrealistic) scenario, they diminish Hamas influence until it loses relevance and another (possibly worse) organisation takes its place as the circumstances that created Hamas have only changed for the worse. The truth of the matter is that Israel cannot simply bomb their way out of this situation.

What should Israel do is such a broad question that it's nearly impossible to answer. But with regard to Hamas specifically, what usually is done in these situations where it's a large force against a much smaller force is first, possibly, a realignment of the smaller force (predominantly through violent means, but not exclusively) and then negotiations. In the history of such conflicts, this is the only solution that has ever worked outside of outright genocide.

Right now, though, Israel is playing by the Hamas playbook and doing exactly what they wanted. They have overreacted by killing massive amounts of ordinary people and brought widespread destruction to Gaza, placing the people in Gaza in a situation hostile to human life, with no hope and no future. All of this has had the effect of turning bystanders into symphatisers and sympathisers into active participants. As a cherry on top, it has even drawn other groups in and widened the conflict not only in the West Bank, but also outside of Israel.

As even the US advised Israel, a more targeted approach would have drastically reduced these risks. And Israel has demonstrated that is has the capability to take a more targeted approach. It just chooses not to because Bibi & Co need a prolonged war and want to make Gaza uninhabitable by destroying crucial infrastructure and arable land.

Quote Posted by Qooper

Just take a look at the sources I have cited in the thread (or anywhere else, for that matter), if you don't believe me. You'll find they are all from places like Associated Press, Reuters, BBC, or Israeli newspapers such as The Times of Israel. As for the "child soldiers" Israel is claiming to be active in Gaza, there are many sources, but here is just one of them:

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(https://www.foxnews.com/world/exclusive-hamas-islamic-jihad-accused-using-child-soldiers-war-against-israel)

The IDF told Fox New Digital that “Over 170 minors are active in the military wings of Hamas and Islamic Jihad in the Gaza Strip...children are taught by Hamas from a young age to hate Israel and Jews and already in schools, youth movements and summer camps, children undergo theoretical and practical military training.”

The number of 170 children is the current number of active minors compelled to aid Hamas terrorists, it was claimed.

Quote Posted by Qooper

and I know you don't believe Israel cares about civilians

The numbers speak for themselves, but aside for things like the mass killing of children, I would also point out the denial of food and medicine to the population. I would also point out the dehumanising language of Israeli officials and leaders and outright calls for ethnic cleansing, including with the use of bioweapons. I would point out violence in West Bank that's supported by the state. I could go on, but much of what I have to say has already been addressed fairly early in this thread, especially in the Shaun video I posted and the video that lists some of the arguments that are used to justify the mass killings.

Qooper on 27/9/2024 at 10:11

Thanks for your reply, Starker. I appreciate you putting thought into it. I don't have time to reply today, as a friend is coming over, but I just wanted to write that it'll probably take me a few days to get back to you. I'm also a bit disappointed in myself regarding my response to your second reply. I changed my reply in the hopes you wouldn't see it, but you did. For openness, I'll explain to everyone what I wrote: I called your response manipulation and twisting my words, and I suggested you consider an apology. Perhaps that was a bit too much. I apologize to you instead, for going over the top with my words. I still maintain that you mischaracterized what I wrote and scolded me for doing something I didn't, but that does not give me a pass to behave inappropriately. I strive to be more British next time.

Starker on 27/9/2024 at 14:30

If there is anything in this war that has affected me, it's the heinous atrocities committed against civilians. The terrorist actions of Hamas of course, but also the enormous numbers of Palestinian civilians, especially children, who have been senslessly killed. The suggestion that a large amount of the children killed were Hamas child soldiers and/or Hamas deliberately placing them in the path of Israel's bombs (as if they had time to just scrounge up random children in the middle of a war) made me choose words that were more biting than I would usually have used.

But still, I consider that kind of attitude towards the victims really untoward. I've seen people try to justify the mass killings in various ways (for example blaming Palestinians for once having voted for Hamas a long time ago), but I've never seen this line of attack being used against the victims. I have to admit it really caught me off guard.

Subjective Effect on 28/9/2024 at 10:40

Comparing the situation to the IRA is really not logical.

Big news this morning. Boom boom sheikh the room.

Nicker on 28/9/2024 at 15:24

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Israel does not bomb indiscriminately, and in fact goes to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties.

Seeding densely populated areas with hundreds of remotely activated bombs, which are very likely to kill or injure people other than your intended targets, is pretty much a definition of indiscriminate.

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Is Hamas evil for deliberately targeting civilians? Absolutely. Is Likud evil for deliberately targeting civilians? Absolutely. Do both sides believe that they are divinely justified to commit such atrocities, in the name of the same god? ABSOLUTELY! Is that the stupidest, most evil excuse ever invented by our species? ABSOLUTELY.

Will the violence end, while superstitious thugs, who believe in magical sky beings, are allowed to have political power? No fucking way.

Christo-Fascists, Islamo-Fascists and the biblical grand daddy of them all, Judeo-Fascists, are all one family, Abrahamic-Fascists. They have been a shit stain on humanity for millennia and their blood soaked daddy-god delusion shows no sign of waning. They will burn this life to ashes while praying and murdering in hopes of the next, of a final battle and a final reward which never has and never will arrive.

(And BTW, I am half Jewish so if anyone wants to call me anti-Semitic for saying that, they can half-fuck themselves.)

This endless war is not between Likud and Hamas. It's not between Arabs and Jews. It's between stupidity and humanity. Arrogance and humility. Superstition and honesty.

That's why it's endless, because human stupidity is boundless.

Consider this, theo-fascists. Even if Yahweh/Allah existed, he is clearly not on your side or this fight would be ancient history.

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On a more practical question: I am still waiting for the "one state solution" crowd in here, to explain how that would work, for either side. What are the nuts and bolts of your final solution?

Likud crows that it is "winning". Really? It has the upper, blood soaked hand, for the moment but it is surrounded by new and old enemies while it's allies become less and less keen to support its atrocities.

Hamas and its kin, demand the elimination of all Jews, like that is ever going to happen.

So, "one-staters" of either side, please explain how your dream state can actually be achieved.

Subjective Effect on 28/9/2024 at 16:01

It really isn't between the political parties. It doesn't matter who is in pretty in Israel, the extremists will try to kill Jews and want to destroy Israel. Be honest.

The IDF do not try to kill civilians, they just don't allow their enemies to use the ultimate cheat code - human shields.

Nicker on 28/9/2024 at 16:11

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It doesn't matter who is in pretty in Israel, the extremists will try to kill Jews and want to destroy Israel. Be honest.

Or you could be honest and admit that Likud is embroiled in a campaign of indiscriminate murder of civilians, just like Hamas.

Hamas wants to eliminate Jews. Likud wants to eliminate Arabs. Is this really about what either side wants or about what they are doing.

So how about your one state solution, S.E.? Still waiting on the details.