Starker on 26/9/2024 at 16:57
Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Killing civilians is their MO. Israel, however, as a state that's ostensibly bound by laws and rules of conduct in war, has directly killed tens of thousands of civilians, including thousands of children. More children have died in Palestine than in the entire Ukraine war. Israel is actually more indiscriminate in waging war against Gaza than Russia is against Ukraine. Moreover, these are children of all ages, from newborn infants to prepubescent teenagers. Casting these victims as future terrorists is an irresponsible line of attack you should frankly be ashamed of. Not to mention that the teenage and adult men who have died in these attacks are hardly all Hamas fighters either.
There is no disputing that there is an extraordinarily high number and ratio of civilian deaths, even by Israel's numbers, but independent sources, such as Uppsala Conflict Data Program, place it far higher: (
https://aoav.org.uk/2024/netanyahu-got-it-wrong-before-the-us-congress-idfs-clean-performance-in-gaza-is-a-lie/). And that's just people who have been identified or reported, not accounting for people who have simply gone missing or died without anyone being there to report their deaths, such as whole families being wiped out. Entire family names have now gone extinct. And this is not even considering all the indirect deaths, for example by disease and starvation, which are higher still. This is not a war, this is a massacre.
Also, among the civilian casualties, an extraordinary high number of aid workers and journalists have died. In fact, more journalists have died in this war than in any previous war in history. The Committee to Protect Journalists has furthermore determined several cases where journalists have been directly targeted despite being clearly identifiable, including even direct killings by snipers.
One case of Shireen Abu Alekh in particular is notable where she was killed by a sniper and people attempting to help her were also shot at, to ensure she would have no chance of survival. At her funeral, her pallbearers were attacked by Israeli police with batons and stun grenades, so they nearly dropped the casket. Also, the police attacked the hospital from where the funeral procession took place, wounding medical staff and patients. Oh, and I should mention that this took place before the Hamas attack. This was done by what Israel claims to be the "world's most moral military" and, presumably, the "world's most moral police" even before the full-scale invasion of Gaza.
Gaza is a city. There are no military facilities in Gaza. Hence, any building Hamas uses is by default a civilian building. Even then, places like hospitals have an especially high bar of justification for attack according to laws of war, even if members of Hamas would be present or treated there. Israel has shown no such justification. Rather the presence of Hamas has become a convenient justification for any attack that claims a high number of civilian lives. Especially convenient as there is no requirement for proof whether someone is or isn't affiliated with Hamas.
Also, a large number of houses have been damaged or destroyed completely. Hundreds of thousands of houses have received some damage, with more than half the homes being either partially or completely destroyed. Nearly 1.9 million people have been displaced from their homes. This corresponds to the stated goal of Israel of turning Gaza into a tent city. In addition to homes, hundreds of schools, museums, libraries, and religious buildings such as mosques and churches have been systematically destroyed in what can only be described as cultural genocide: (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_heritage_during_the_Israeli_invasion_of_the_Gaza_Strip)
Israel has repeatedly prevented food and medicine from reaching Gaza. 83% of food aid required does not reach Gaza, meaning most people only have a maximum of one meal per day, below the 1000-2000 calories required (depending on the age). Tens of thousands of children require urgent treatment for malnutrition: (
https://www.nrc.no/news/2024/september/israels-siege-now-blocks-83-of-food-aid-reaching-gaza-new-data-reveals/)
Qooper on 26/9/2024 at 17:44
Quote Posted by Starker
Israel is actually more indiscriminate in waging war against Gaza than Russia is against Ukraine.
That is a ridiculous claim and you know it. russia isn't warning any of Ukraine's civilians before a strike, and russia brutally tortures Ukrainian civilians in torture basements just like Hamas does. But if you really are serious, then I'd like to see your evidence for your claim.
Quote:
Moreover, these are children of all ages, from newborn infants to prepubescent teenagers. Casting these victims as future terrorists is an irresponsible line of attack you should frankly be ashamed of.
Starker, you ran out of straw, building that one, didn't you? Sounded more like an emotional reflex outburst than the collected response by an educated, civilized individual such as yourself. I did not cast these victims as future terrorists, and I launched no attack. Please re-read that first paragraph of mine. I have argued in good faith with you, and I except the same from you. There are only two possibilities: either you made an honest mistake (and that's alright, we all make such mistakes sometimes), or you did this on purpose.
Starker on 26/9/2024 at 18:02
Is Israel warning all of the civilians before it drops highly destructive bombs on them? Sometimes it bombs even areas where it directs people to flee to, though I would assume this is due to incompetence rather than malice. And, warning or not, if you kill the civilians after warning them, the end result is still the mass killing of civilians.
Also...
Quote:
(
https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796)
The JDAM bombs include precision-guided 1,000- and 2,000-pound (450-kilogram and 900-kilogram) “bunker-busters.”
“It turns earth to liquid,” said Marc Garlasco, a former Pentagon defense official and a war crimes investigator for the U.N. “It pancakes entire buildings.”
He said the explosion of a 2,000-pound bomb in the open means “instant death” for anyone within about 30 meters (100 feet). Lethal fragmentation can extend for up to 365 meters (1,200 feet).
In an Oct. 31 strike on the urban refugee camp of Jabaliya, experts say a 2,000-pound bomb killed over 100 civilians.
What do you call dropping a bomb on a refugee camp if not indiscriminate?
You said I cannot point to women and children among the civilian casualties because Hamas trains them as terrorists. How many women and children do you see among Hamas fighters? I'm perfectly calm, but making such a statement and furthermore demanding an apology after saying something that offensive goes well beyond a civil discussion.
Qooper on 26/9/2024 at 18:12
Quote Posted by Starker
You said I cannot point to women and children among the civilian casualties because Hamas trains them as terrorists. How many women and children do you see among Hamas fighters?
I never said you couldn't point to women and children, I specifically referred to grouping them together. I don't understand how you read my paragraph that way. There are many children among the casualties because the ones that have been trained to be Hamas fighters are among the militants that Israel is targeting. There is nothing offensive about stating that fact. Hamas is training school-aged children. I didn't say that the children that aren't Hamas fighters are somehow future terrorists, you added that one in as if it was something I said.
Quote:
I'm perfectly calm, but making such a statement and furthermore demanding an apology after saying something that offensive goes well beyond a civil discussion.
I edited my reply because I realized I got a bit emotional myself.
EDIT: I don't know if I'm making my point clear, so I'll try once more. There are many Hamas child fighters. If you group women and children under a single statistic, you get a number that is inflated by militant casualties. There is nothing offensive or uncivil about stating this.
Starker on 26/9/2024 at 18:27
Okay, then. Give me an estimate. Among the thousands of children, how many would you say were Hamas fighters taking part in combat operations, assuming that Hamas would be so stupid to accept such a liability when there is no shortage of recruits? 10%? 50%? 90%? Exactly how many child soldiers do you think Hamas has?
Even if more than 50% of the children killed were Hamas operatives, then Israel has still killed more innocent children in Gaza than Russia has in Ukraine.
Also, do you think torture does not happen in Israel's prisons? Do you think Palestinian detainees and prisoners are treated fairly and according to international law?
Quote:
(
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/05/torture-abuse-and-humiliation-palestinians-on-israeli-prison-hell)
Ashraf al-Muhtaseb is a musician who described leaving Israel's jails with no hearing in his left ear, four fractured ribs and a broken hand, so ill and weak from hunger he could no longer walk.
Dropped at an Israeli checkpoint on his own, he says he began crawling towards his home in the occupied West Bank town of Hebron, until a passerby picked him up.
Muhtaseb's wife fainted when she saw him, and his son asked: “Who are you, and where is my dad?” Picked up on 8 October 2023, he was not charged before his release on 7 April this year.
In those six months, the 53-year-old said, he passed through three Israeli prisons, enduring a marathon of torture, abuse and humiliation detailed in an interview, backed up by medical records and photos that show the impact of multiple beatings and of losing 30kg (66lbs) of body weight.
He said his hearing was destroyed during an attack in his cell in Ketziot prison in November. “I was beaten and kicked in my back, my chest and my head. I had one side of my head against the wall and was getting blows on the other,” he told the Guardian. “The next day I couldn't hear.”
The abuse, starvation and humiliation he said endured was part of a pattern described repeatedly in eight other interviews carried out by the Guardian, and dozens more done by the human rights group B'Tselem. They described abuse so widespread and systemic that it must now be considered state policy, said the group's executive director, Yuli Novak. Israeli jails had become “torture camps” in which at least 60 Palestinian prisoners have died in detention since 7 October 2023, she added.
Prisoners said they were subjected to regular severe, arbitrary violence, including sexual assault. None of the prisoners interviewed by the Guardian left detention without experiencing or witnessing some form of attack. Other abuse and humiliation was constant, from starvation rations to denial of access to basic hygiene supplies including sanitary pads for women, soap, towels, clothes and clean water for drinking and showers.
B'Tselem's descriptions of systemic abuse echo those raised in private by an unlikely ally: the domestic intelligence service. In June the Shin Bet head, Ronen Bar, warned prison officials of a “crisis” that threatened national security. In a leaked letter he says Israel is vulnerable in international courts to “well-founded” claims of committing the war crime of inhumane treatment and violating the convention against torture.
[...]
Qooper on 26/9/2024 at 18:37
Quote Posted by Starker
Okay, then. Give me an estimate.
Hang on. You said "I'm perfectly calm, but making such a statement and furthermore demanding an apology after saying something that offensive goes well beyond a civil discussion."
So now with "Okay then", does that mean you admit you misunderstood me and misrepresented what I said? Yet you continue with this interrogative tone instead of apologizing. Like I said, I've argued with you in good faith and with respect. I expect the same from you. If you don't trust me, then there's no other point in continuing than for other TTLG members to see the evidence we present.
Starker on 26/9/2024 at 18:48
I said "okay, then" to indicate I was ready to move on, but evidently you are not ready for that. Whenever you want to continue, though, we can discuss the use of Palestinian children as human shields by the IDF.
Qooper on 26/9/2024 at 19:11
When I make a mistake, when I misunderstand someone, I admit that and apologize. I strive to understand what the other person means rather than looking for gotchas I can exploit. I was hoping for a conversation of mutual respect with you, Starker. I've meant no ill will towards you, regardless of having an opposing view to yours. I genuinely mean it when I say that I care about discussing all sides of a topic in good faith. But although I'm a bit disappointed, we can certainly move on.
Quote Posted by Starker
Among the thousands of children, how many would you say were Hamas fighters taking part in combat operations, assuming that Hamas would be so stupid to accept such a liability when there is no shortage of recruits?
I don't know the exact numbers, but there is evidence of Hamas training children. The Palestinian Authority has created several paramilitary training camps for teenagers. And assuming Hamas would accept such a liability? That is not how Hamas looks at it. To them it is a strategic victory if they manage to get Palestinian children killed in Israeli strikes. When Hamas launches rockets at Israel, Israel of course responds and fires at those sites. Hamas knows this, and it is not by accident they place children around their launchers. But your question/point can be turned around. Why would Israel indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians knowing perfectly well it wouldn't end well for Israel? What is there for Israel to gain?
[video=youtube;NIjsuE-7a9Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIjsuE-7a9Y[/video]
Starker on 26/9/2024 at 19:16
Even according to Israel's claims (which, to be clear, I trust about as far as I can comfortably spit out a rat), there are no more than 200 "child soldiers". Even if it was true, though, among the thousands of children killed, it would barely make a dent.
Children are a liability, because they are not disciplined and they are hardly effective fighters. In a war, they are more likely than not to get their unit killed. No doubt there have been some training efforts for youths to prepare them for the future, but that's not unusual even in regular militaries where you can voluntarily join at 16-17 years old in some parts of the world.
Israel kills Palestinian civilians, because it simply does not care about civilian casualties. Also, it's in the current government's interest to make the war as long and bloody as possible.
Qooper on 26/9/2024 at 19:34
Quote Posted by Starker
Israel kills Palestinian civilians, because it simply does not care about civilian casualties.
Now you're simply ignoring many of the points I've presented. Israel carefully plans its strikes so as to minimize civilian casualties. Israel warns civilians before a strike (leaflets, the knock, phoning residents). Israel has set up a safe zone in the south, and in addition to directing external humanitarian aid there, Israel is also giving food and medicine to Palestinian civilians.
You don't trust Israel, and you seem to trust Palestinian authorities. I trust Israel and I don't trust Palestinian authorities.
