Injustice in Bulgaria

Renegen on 26/7/2005 at 21:48

Ya way to prove you're a dumbass Strontium after this gem of yours.

"I know you are but what am I" I can hear the lawyer saying it now...

"Who's bashing Bulgaria? All I said was that it was backwards" (followed by country)

We need the bulgarian hordes to arrive, with their "backwards" violent behaviour towards you, not quite sure what it means, but we'll all find out.

You've been served, now learn a lesson or two, like knowing when you've been served and not producing posts like the last one and picking your battles because it's painfully obvious your behaviour is due to the nationality of the "victim", with no regard for the rest of the story, or others like it.

SD on 26/7/2005 at 21:51

Quote Posted by Ulukai

Come on, I want to know why it's ok for you to call a whole country backwards yet we can't make digs at Liverpool for providing Bulgaria with acts of such appalling behaviour. (Regardless of who got prosecuted).

It's pretty simple, isn't it? Bulgarian justice and the Bulgarian courts are a reflection of Bulgarian society, whereas a single rotten individual cannot be held up as being representative of an entire city.

Is this not elementary? I thought it was a basic truth that a country's legal framework was the one measure by which its level of advancement could be best gauged.

You can accuse me of stereotyping or xenophobia here, but if anyone is xenophobic in this instance, it's the Bulgarians - they're the ones who didn't care who was convicted, so long as it was an English guy.

Compare and contrast with the national outcry in the UK over the death of a Brazilian national at the hands of the state, and you have the difference between a modern country and a backwards one.

Shit ain't hard people.

SD on 26/7/2005 at 22:00

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

That's bashing in my books. Care to ask any Bulgarians? If someone said Liverpool was backwards (which it obviously is given the freaking out over this) you'd take it as bashing.

Liverpool people are a passionate lot, and a slight against one of us is a slight against all of us. It's patently, painfully obvious that few outside of this Great City understand that mentality. I'm not surprised you find it backwards - you couldn't possibly hope to understand.

Quote:

And his lawyer wants to cut a deal whereby he is prosecuted here. Idiots.

Can you blame him, given the kangaroo court that we've seen passes for a house of justice in Bulgaria? Their verdicts are so fucked-up that despite the confession, he'd probably be cleared!

Quote:

And again with the Eastern Europe bashing.

As someone of Eastern European extraction, I reserve the right to pass comment on that region of the world.

mopgoblin on 26/7/2005 at 22:02

Quote Posted by Vigil

Aye, but that's if the grounds for reasonable doubt are admissable in court. For instance, a murder trial doesn't grind to a halt when a kook who is known for confessing to any crime they find out about comes into the police station for the 14th time and announces they were the one that did it. Obviously that's not the case here, but I'm saying the judge would have had reasons (probably not fair ones, under the circumstances) for not treating the confession as admissable.

What about the existence of the confession? The confession itself might not prove anything, but "someone has confessed, even though they're in another country so it might be a bit dodgy" sounds like cause for reasonable doubt to me. Why shouldn't they wait for a bit and see if they can get a better confession or some stronger evidence that this one is false?

Ulukai on 26/7/2005 at 22:31

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Bulgarian justice and the Bulgarian courts are a reflection of Bulgarian society, whereas a single rotten individual cannot be held up as being representative of an entire city.

But this is a single case. You're judging the whole Bulgarian justice system on one case that has affected you personally because one of your fellow Liverpudlians has been wrongly imprisoned, and as you said yourself you're a very passionate bunch so you're going to overreact.

And since you did that, I had no qualms about pointing out just how unacceptable I find the behaviour of one of your citizens whilst representing this country abroad.

If we were to pick and choose one wrongful imprisonment case in the UK, and judge the whole system on it, we'd look pretty bad too, neh?

dj_ivocha on 26/7/2005 at 22:41

Quote Posted by Renegen

Any bulgarians in the house? Poor brit got caught in jail in another country. It happens in Korea, in Singapore, in China. The title was offensive...

Quote Posted by dj_ivocha

Guess that's how hatred based on nationality starts... :erg:

(of course, my quoted post is not directed at Renegen, but at StD)

.............

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Who's "bashing" Bulgaria? All I said was that it was backwards; you'd think it was a dynamic, modern country the way people are bleating on.
...
Now I agree, it probably rivals Amsterdam for the sheer quantity and ease of availability of hardcore pornography and hookers, but that does not make it Holland.
...
It's pretty simple, isn't it? Bulgarian justice and the Bulgarian courts are a reflection of Bulgarian society, whereas a single rotten individual cannot be held up as being representative of an entire city.

I wonder how you even talk to me on IRC, when I'm such a backward bulgar, grown up in a society that is in the stone age, as reflected by it's legal system :(

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Believe it or not, mine is one of the reasonable voices on this issue; there are people advocating sanctions, military action... you name it.

Quote Posted by dj_ivocha

Guess that's how hatred based on nationality starts... :erg:

SD on 26/7/2005 at 22:54

Quote Posted by Ulukai

Yes - one case in which the evidence so overwhelmingly pointed to innocence that it beggared belief when he was found guilty. I think given the extraordinary circumstances, it would be fair to assume that this must be par for the course in Bulgaria.

As an aside, can I just say how pleased I am that you, at least, have noted that it is the Bulgarian justice system which I am ragging on, and not the Bulgarian people, who in my experience are perfectly decent human beings.

Also, I would like to apologise for the title of this thread, particularly to the Bulgarians on TTLG, which is clearly a gross exaggeration on my part due to my immediate anger on hearing of these events. I hate to see innocent people suffer.

Quote:

And since you did that, I had no qualms about pointing out just how unacceptable I find the behaviour of one of your citizens whilst representing this country abroad.

You find it unacceptable - we find it unacceptable. It's so unacceptable to us that the true guilty party and his family have been bombarded with threats from local people, angry that he would let another suffer for his crime.

Quote:

If we were to pick and choose one wrongful imprisonment case in the UK, and judge the whole system on it, we'd look pretty bad too, neh?

If we were talking about the 70s and 80s, when we had a whole slew of innocent people convicted of crimes, then you'd be within your rights to criticise our justice system - although those cases were pretty much all to do with police fabrication of evidence.

Certainly, if this had happened the other way round (an innocent Bulgarian being jailed for a crime in the UK) there would be massive demonstrations in the UK, something which I am yet to see in Bulgaria.

I am informed that this case has received scant publicity in Bulgaria, which I can scarcely believe; potentially the biggest Bulgarian diplomatic disaster since the asassination of Georgi Markov, and not a word in the local press?

Ulukai on 26/7/2005 at 23:09

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Hmm. I still think that's a big assumption.

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Also, I would like to apologise for the title of this thread, particularly to the Bulgarians on TTLG, which is clearly a gross exaggeration on my part due to my immediate anger on hearing of these events.

The thread title is primarily why you got the below the belt remark with regards to the brick slinging relocation board, so if you're taking it back then I shall retract my 'idiot' comment.

ps I'm going to bed =)

*Zaccheus* on 27/7/2005 at 08:07

Quote Posted by theBlackman

In some countries you have to PROVE you are innocent.

Yes, and in some countries they just lock you up.
:p

SD on 9/9/2009 at 10:50

And four years later, he's out. Looks like I was right all along:

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8245760.stm)

Quote:

Liverpool fan Michael Shields has been pardoned by Justice Secretary Jack Straw after being detained for four years over an attack in Bulgaria.

The 22-year-old, from Liverpool, was released after Mr Straw ruled he was "morally and technically innocent" of the attempted murder of a barman.