Nameless Voice on 17/4/2020 at 22:12
One of the things I was talking about with the levels, which I don't think I was really clear about, is that while obviously AI perceptions are going to be based on numbers and mathematics, those numbers should be turned into discrete states as early as possible, rather than only at the end. That makes everything much easier to deal with, and correspondingly also easier for the player to understand.
An easy way for AIs to advertise their alertness is for them to ready their weapons. An unaware AI would have their sword or gun sheathed, and would draw it when they are suspicious enough to think that they might need it. That would probably be at Alert 2 in Thief terms, though. Drawing a weapon for Alert 1 seems excessive.
Starker on 18/4/2020 at 02:00
Quote Posted by vfig
Edit: a brief comment on burning and freezing mechanics: usually these are just fancy lock-and-key systems or fancy magic-spells-to-kill-opponents. I think the only game that has done fire well is Far Cry 2: and there, fire is a hazard. You can set things on fire intentionally, but it's as likely to get out of hand and hurt you as to help you. And you usually wouldn't try stealthing through an area that's on fire, because it's way too dangerous and unpredictable. (Far Cry 2's stealth system is probably worth another shout out for a detailed system that's badly communicated to the player, and so ineffective and confusing for most players—but highly engaging and effective if you do learn how it works.)
Yes, these very issues came up during the development of UA. Is it worth simulating an entire ecology if it happens off screen for the player and they don't get to see the cause and effect, for example? Not to mention that the player needs to visit the same locations frequently enough to observe the changes in the first place, not something very likely to happen in an action title.
And of course the simulation can go too far -- it's very easy to end up in UA with the whole level on fire, for example. But I think there's also a lot of fun to have with systems like these and lots of potential for real gameplay applications... freezing a patch of hazardous water to walk over it, breaking otherwise unbreakable lanterns by heating and then freezing them, setting something on fire to get NPCs run over to extinguish it, being able to break a wooden door apart and use a splinter as a makeshift torch, and so on.
Meowdori on 18/4/2020 at 13:59
I think Nameless actually has a good point there, it's easy to cross the sweet spot boundary and make it too focused on pure realism at the expense of enjoyable gameplay (though it also depends on what people deem to be enjoyable for them, because this will naturally vary across players).
I think i might be looking at this from a perspective of someone who's willing to try the hardcore realism (in case i fuck up badly, i can always load a save, which is not a problem for me personally). Can't tell if this would work out for me or not in the long run, but it would still be interesting to see some of these ideas come into life, as Skacky mentioned.
Also i learned something new today, thanks to vfig. I didn't know about the the subtle difference between the two lowest alertness levels and the fact that once raised it never returns to the 0, that's nice to know.
Quote:
Thief already has an uphill struggle getting players to understand their visibility in light and darkness, even with the light gem communicating this. Most players still operate on the idea that if the ground is dark then they will be hidden there—even if the surrounding light and shadow shows that only their feet and legs would be shadowed.
Honestly that's a foreign perspective to me, i never relied solely on the ligting level of the ground immediately under my feet, but i can see why many people might tend to think of it this way.
The idea brought up by Skacky, concerning player's visibility, while your silhouette, even while totally hidden in the shadow, should be visible against bright backgrounds also crossed my mind many times, and i'd like to test it in action, personally.
And yes, i very much agree with the idea of more complex NPC activity schedules, that would make for even more immersive gameplay without making it harder to grasp or feel too hardcore.
Among other things i pondered about, i'd like to see the AI actually react to any environmental changes caused by the player that look obviously suspiclous (weirdly mislocated objects, rope arrows left stuck in wooden rafters, etc, etc - we already have the mechanic of guard reacting to blood stains implemented, but i'd love to see it being taken to a higher level)
PinkDot on 18/4/2020 at 14:41
I'd like to give AI stronger navigational abilities like climbing/jumping over small walls or 'cliffs' (let's say around 4 units tall in Dromed) and give them ability to climb ladders. Ladders are sometimes the only way to enter certain area and seeing AI in let's say attic, without stairs access is a bit unbelievable, knowing that they cannot climb. Of course player would still have a lot of advantage, like jumping from a ladder onto another one or onto a ledge or mantling over taller obstacles etc... The levels would have to be designed around these AI skills, of course, to make it balanced, but I think trying to escape from such a chase could be thrilling!
I also would like to see some "weird behavior" awareness in AIs. Let's say, if a bystander sees you climbing a wall on the street, or jumping over food stalls, throwing boulders and pot plants or just doing anything that is not considered 'normal' in a typical society they would be let's say shouting at you (telling to stop, giving warnings) or/and call for guards and in general bringing attention...
On the other hand, giving more abilities for the player. I kinda liked the idea of hiding in wardrobes in Thi4f (I only played like 2 levels of that game though), but the execution could be better. This could be potentially expanded on hiding under beds, behind curtains etc... And doing that trick - like assuming an X pose at the ceiling of a narrow corridor, so the guard running after you just runs by, without looking up! A bit cartoonish, I know, but could be interesting (but there would be only so much time you could stay in such a pose, so it couldn't be overused). I also would like to see ability to push things by punching or kicking and to have more than one action per item.
As for the silhouette detection. This most likely would be impossible to implement in a controllable manner, where too much aesthetic decisions would conflict with gameplay and vice versa (colour of the walls, placement of lights even more restricted etc..). Plus, how would you communicate to a player who of the multiple AIs that have a line of sight with you, can actually see your silhouette? It's an angle dependent thing, unlike the current visibility algorithm. I mean I'd like to see this implemented by somebody somehow somewhere, but just have doubts this could work well, without being frustrating...
Meowdori on 18/4/2020 at 15:30
Oh gosh, i love every single idea PinkDot just came up with!
PinkDot on 18/4/2020 at 16:02
One more idea - since stealth games are all about light and shadows - I have not seen a game that allows you to close blinds or curtains on the windows. Again I have not played many stealth games, but due to engine constraints, it was impossible to change the effects of natural (sun/moon) light in original Thief. But with modern engines there should not be a problem.
As for the tools - kind of a smoke bomb, creating dense localized fog, effectively blocking view (naturally for the player too).
Also - leaving trails of water, mud or snow, after contact with those. Some kind of wiping or drying ability could be provided. (like stand for 30 seconds beside a fireplace sort of thing... or maybe finding cloths in the environment).
skacky on 18/4/2020 at 17:36
Excellent suggestions everyone. Yeah the silhouette idea is just a musing, I realize it may very well be completely impossible to implement and even if it was, may be completely unfun. I agree that the AI needs to be able to vault over obstacles, climb ladders and jump over gaps, I mean a game like Kingpin: Life of Crime had that already twenty years ago so it's definitely possible to do. Alien: Isolation allows you to hide in lockers and in Dishonored you can also hide under tables or props that have enough space to crawl under, so it's not unheard of and is very nice to see.
Smoke bombs and trails of water etc: yes, I also considered that (especially the smoke bomb). One idea I had a few years back is extremely similar to yours PinkDot and was to have a rainy level where you had to seek warm places (radiators, etc) for your clothes to get dry otherwise you'd leave puddles everywhere. Not sure however if this would be fun.
Estel Randir on 27/4/2020 at 05:40
One of the things that is great about thief is the attempt to use npc memory/awareness of the environment. "Hey, who left this door open?" or "Who put out this torch?". But it is implemented in a very inconsistent manner. Sometimes something is missing & they come searching the shadows for a minute or two, but often they just ignore it. I mean they have been guarding this same area or traveling the same route for weeks or months. Guards should notice any little thing out of place & react more intelligently than they do. It seems when they do notice things (insignificant or significant), it only bumps the alert up one level. If you are left to guard manor with the most valuable gem in the region, an open window on your route where no one ever goes but you - this should set you on high alert & send you interacting with other guards. For example: I notice the window open, I go high alert & search the room for several minutes all shadows, etc. Then I go to the guard nearest me and ask him if they were smoking by the window again (they have been repremanded previously for doing this by the lord of the manor), if not then I go alert every guard on the floor.
As someone else mentioned (and builds on my comment above): the guards should notice things turned on / off that are not supposed to be and change them back. These would be items that are not of high alert significance. Imagine if guards would relight the torches on their normal routes? That would require much more planning on the players part. Or closing doors that you opened. If they notice too many torches go out or too many doors are left open, then that should set them to alert the other guards. More realism & challenge.
vfig on 29/4/2020 at 16:01
Years ago I had a big discussion with CrashT about Thief and Dishonored and the stealth genre. Some parts of it are relevant here; the biggest point is that stealth is not a genre: it is a game mode.
One of the key design decisions for a stealth game is What happens when stealth fails? In Thief, you fall back into awkward combat or comedic running away, or (if you're on your toes) flashbangs or invisibility potions to recover stealth mode. In Invisible Inc, failing stealth immediately ratchets up the difficulty for the rest of the level, and also, if your agent was seen by an armed enemy, turns into a one-chance-to-fix-it instadeath puzzle. Many shoehorned-in stealth missions in generally non-stealth games just instafail the mission, which is very unsatisfying. The design of events that trigger failure and of your failure modes will greatly affect how your stealth game feels.
TriangleTooth on 29/4/2020 at 16:37
One detail that could be fun - guards reacting more to increased numbers of small things.
For example with torches guards could ignore the first one or two (based on difficulty) but at more than that consider it 'odd' and make them a bit more suspicious, a bit more sensitive, at least for a while until they calm down. Another thought is that they could relight them once they've seen a few out. Servants on the other hand might immediately relight torches as that's their job, while guards consider it something distracting them from more important work. That would add more of a danger to the harmless servants, while making it harder for the player to abuse guards' AI by getting them to stop their patrol to relight a torch.
Loot disappearance, as I mentioned in another thread in Fan Missions, should probably not alert guards, though they could grumble about it. The player can't be punished for such a fundamental part of the gameplay. Although, special loot disappearing causing alert, paired with the ability to buy a replica for it in the shop menu, might add something of value to the game. If you switch the items, guards won't notice it's gone.
I also agree guard mobility should be increased, at least for some guards. Heavily armed guards could still be rooted to the ground, but lighter guards could give chase at any mantle height. Non-human enemies could be given movement range beyond the player - spiders on walls etc., though in the dark engine this would probably be hard to get working without jank.
