Imagine if you will... - by Macha
Humorbot on 4/9/2009 at 18:16
Quote Posted by CCCToad
And its also whats known as a "red herring" argument.
It wasn't by definition a "red herring" argument, it's just unfortunate so many people are arguing about the police and not the point of the argument.
A "Red Herring argument" is one based on diverging the argument to something else completely irrelevant. This was not intended to diverge it to something irrelevant.
It's a thought experiment, designed to point out that the real problems with the current American health care system. The advantages that have been spelt out are the same as those with the American health care system.
i.e. lower taxes
more control over what you get
less waiting time
personal health can be achieved more efficiently.
However the disadvantages are also the same
i.e. Poor people suffer.
Lots of people are unwilling to change the system
Desperate poor people resort to crime to get the health care they need.
It is essentially "Would you be in favour of something new (like this) coming into effect, if not, then why would you support the current system?"
It doesn't prove anything, it's not supposed to, it's a thought experiment.
heywood on 4/9/2009 at 18:44
The "point" of the argument is obvious, but it's not new, insightful, or interesting. And besides, there's already a long thread about health care reform here:
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128283) http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128283
BTW I agree completely with demagogue.
Humorbot on 4/9/2009 at 20:32
Quote Posted by demagogue
Oh, I guess I did miss that. But then it's sort of an arbitrary analogy ... What about private electric companies, private banks, private construction companies, private highways, private mass-transportation, private mail services, private militaries, private phone companies, private universities, private airports and airlines ... I mean each category you pick is a completely different can of worms that has its own pros and cons for public vs private management. You let the needs and limits drive the argument about which is better, not some dogmatic notion of the argument drive what you think the needs and limits are. So I'm not such a fan of argument by analogy in this area... It's another reason I can't be a strict libertarian or social democrat. You just can't decide this stuff on ideology alone IMO.
Your point that it is an arbitrary analogy, is true. But the comparison to other private categories does not work in the same way as this one in particular. The Police is, first of all, not privatized in America at this time, that's important. Second of all, privatized healthcare and privatized Police forces would cause the poor to be caused detrimental harm.
But yes. The only way to get a decent analysis of an argument is to post it on a forum.
Quote Posted by heywood
The "point" of the argument is obvious, but it's not new, insightful, or interesting. And besides, there's already a long thread about health care reform here:
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128283) http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128283
BTW I agree completely with demagogue.
Fine, your points are perfectly valid. Macha posted the thought experiment when he thought it was making a completely different argument, I had no intention of posting it on a forum I wasn't in anyway familiar with.
The only point I'd disagree with is the "obvious" part. If it's so obvious, how come everyone keeps misunderstanding it?
Paz on 5/9/2009 at 01:17
we could save a lot of time here by saying privatised industries and institutions that have a financial incentive to withhold necessary services will always suck big fat dicks
