Aroph on 4/1/2016 at 23:55
Quote Posted by voodoo47
SCP is not a graphics update.. ok, it sort of is, because of its 32bit lighting, but the main focus is always bugfixing, bugfixing, and even more bugfixing. anyway, this is basically System Shock2 Gold, recommended for everyone, even first time players - actually, the description I tend to use when asked about what SCP is is "bugfix patch/mod that can be recommended to a first time player with a straight face".
so unless you really, and absolutely want to experience the game with all the issues that were not resolved by the last official update, and want to see all the original really awful lowres (object) textures, your default mod loadout should be SCP+SHTUP-ND. no one should be playing SS2 without those two nowadays.
Yeah, I worded myself weirdly. I realize that SCP is a mod for gameplay and bugfix but I just prefer to play games as they were released on the first playthrough, even if the game is bugged to some extent. I generally never get mods for games I play but I think I will get some graphics ones in addition to some others for this one because the mods make the game look a lot better. All of this after I play through the game first, of course.
voodoo47 on 5/1/2016 at 00:52
SCP does not change the gameplay, it just fixes broken stuff - and I really can't imagine why anyone would NOT want bugfixes, but suit yourself. SHTUP does a very similar thing - fixes what is broken, and replaces the really lowres textures with their higher/normal res versions. again, no reason why anyone would not want that. it doesn't change the aesthetics in any way, it just smooths things out.
one way or another, my recommendation will always be - no matter what your poison is, never leave your cryo pod without those two.
Pyrian on 5/1/2016 at 01:04
Quote Posted by voodoo47
SCP does not change the gameplay, it just fixes broken stuff - and I really can't imagine why anyone would NOT want bugfixes, but suit yourself.
Eh, that's not really true. There's multiple straight-up balance changes that have no other purpose, in addition to the incidental balance-affecting changes. And honestly SS2 doesn't even come across as particularly buggy in the first place.
voodoo47 on 5/1/2016 at 10:05
balance changes are perfectly ok, even LGS/IG did that in the 2.3 patch (nerfed lethal weapon, for example). no changes to gameplay means the core mechanics (how the weapons work, how the AIs work, how hacking works etc) are left intact, so for example, you will never get an infested grenade launcher that shoots monkey heads, or additional levels/maps. SCP will always play and feel like SS2, just smoother, with all the gears turning as they should. also, one very good reason to use it is when you want to load HD texture mods like the 400 mod - the original maps need to be made HD texture ready, else things will not always look properly. other mods are also starting to become SCP aware, and will offer additional visual effects and other extras when they are loaded on top of SCP (providing a better modding platform/base is one of SCP's secondary goals).
as for the game "not being particularly buggy", please do check the 50+ page SCP readme (also note that most texture work is undocumented, and there is also an internal gamesys fixup doc that has about 20 pages).
Pyrian on 5/1/2016 at 18:47
Quote Posted by voodoo47
balance changes are perfectly ok...
They may be "perfectly ok", but they don't qualify as bug fixes. Just being clear, here.
Quote Posted by voodoo47
as for the game "not being particularly buggy", please do check the 50+ page SCP readme (also note that most texture work is undocumented, and there is also an internal gamesys fixup doc that has about 20 pages).
Oh, I did. I've played SS2 through several times and never even noticed the monkey hit box issue, nor the fact that you don't actually need to get power to the transmitter before using it. Those 50 pages consist almost entirely of minor cosmetic issues; a light out of place, a pipe that doesn't quite reach the ceiling, that sort of thing.
ZylonBane on 5/1/2016 at 22:37
That's bizarre that you never noticed the monkey issue, as they're rather infamous for being difficult to hit.
As for balance changes, 99% of them are simple potAYto/potAHto changes that leave the overall difficulty intact but just tweak things to make more logical sense. The only *real* balance changes were made in consideration of over 15 years of fan consensus-- the assault rifle is overpowered, and tank is useless.
Now, an example for argument's sake: In the vanilla game, the stasis field generator has no effect on psi reavers, cameras, and turrets. In SCP, it does work against them. Would you consider this a bug fix, or a balance change? I personally consider it to be a bit of both, leaning toward bug fix. No reason is given why it would work against all targets except those three, so it's most likely on oversight on Irrational's part (and making it effective against cameras took some script trickery ). On the other hand, this fix undeniably makes the stasis gun more useful, so it can also be considered a balance change. But the stasis gun is so nearly useless in vanilla that really, it needs all the help it can get.
voodoo47 on 5/1/2016 at 22:41
Quote Posted by Pyrian
They may be "perfectly ok", but they don't qualify as bug fixes.
actually they do - half the patches out there do the same thing. and yeah duh, a patch that polishes things will (also) do cosmetic stuff. anyway, not the point - the point is, it's all the good with none of the bad, so play it and have fun.
or don't. your choice.
Pyrian on 5/1/2016 at 23:22
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
That's bizarre that you never noticed the monkey issue, as they're rather infamous for being difficult to hit.
That's probably why, though; in my first playthrough I tended to lob grenades in their general direction, and subsequently I tend to just fire at their center of mass. I'd've noticed if I couldn't hit hybrids in the head, because I had plenty of opportunities to do so.
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
As for balance changes, 99% of them are simple potAYto/potAHto changes that leave the overall difficulty intact but just tweak things to make more logical sense. The only *real* balance changes were made in consideration of over 15 years of fan consensus-- the assault rifle is overpowered, and tank is useless.
I'm not saying they're bad. I'm saying they're not mere bug fixes. I'm not even convinced that what fans think makes sense constitutes a bug fix, either.
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Would you consider this a bug fix, or a balance change? I personally consider it to be a bit of both, leaning toward bug fix.
It's certainly a balance change. Whether it's a bug fix depends entirely on how intentional it was, which I'm not prepared to speculate on.
Quote Posted by voodoo47
actually they do - half the patches out there do the same thing.
Uh... That doesn't make them bug fixes. :confused:
Anyway, Aroph is interested in what the original experience is like, and whether the changes are too much are up to him. I just felt that voodoo47's description both understated and overstated what's been done.
voodoo47 on 6/1/2016 at 00:17
when something is unbalanced, then it doesn't work properly. and what doesn't work properly, needs to be fixed.
anyway, that's exactly it - SCP is the original experience. minus the broken, the ugly and the unfinished. and it doesn't matter that all that stuff has been part of the last official release for years - bad stuff is bad stuff, just being there for a long time doesn't make it any better. and if it can be fixed, it will be. and anyone interested in the real original experience needs to have windows98 and a crt monitor at hand, if you are not willing to do that then you already aren't experiencing the game in the way it's been released, and then you are better off patching it up all the way.
howgh.
Pyrian on 6/1/2016 at 00:30
Quote Posted by voodoo47
when something is unbalanced, then it doesn't work properly.
That's not even necessarily true; indeed the balance issues in SS2 (which are mostly unaddressed anyway) are so extreme that I cannot credit the notion that the designers did not intend it to be that way.
