CPLHicks39 on 7/12/2003 at 08:01
I think Spector did a good job of articulating why I don't think Universal Ammo is a game ending decision. While I still would have preferred seperate ammo types, the actual implementation of Universal Ammo doesn't bother me in the least.
I remember reading an interview with Spector regarding DX1 and he was very clear about the small, deep maps then. IW is definately smaller and more detailed than DX1. On the one hand I really enjoyed the complexity of IW's areas, on the other it was over way too soon.
I was planning to play through again but maybe I'll wait for this patch they're talking about. I'll just keep my fingers cross that they will include a conversation/data cube log.
Tej on 7/12/2003 at 08:49
All this patch talk makes me less unhappy about the February release of the game here in Europe.
I think the article gives a good insight on the developement choices. I haven't decided on the universal ammo thing, so I'm currently sitting on the fence on this. For one, I remember that in the Deux Ex, I often wished I could somehow trade all the rockets, napalm canisters and plasma charges for tranq darts, prod charges and LAMs. Further, the game allowed the player only to carry so much of each type of ammo. So in some way, the unified ammo is, in a way, a wish granted for me. Too bad he doesn't explain where the reload went, though.
As for the gaming world sizes, I somehow like less the small, crammed up places, claustrophobic even. It's not too fun having to constantly trip over objects, bump into NPCs and such. But I'd like to see that single-room RPG.
Fionavar on 7/12/2003 at 19:55
The thing that I find interesting is that in one breath they argue the story is non-linear without direction and open-ended, yet in another the space you have to investigate is limited and controlled - sort of seems to be a paradox? Now MW went WAY over the otherside, but if I had to chose, I'd prefer the MW approach than the IW ... I remember spending HOURS just climbing buildings in Hong Kong in DX and finding neat caches and cubby holes and an easter egg ... maybe :D
Ah well, to tell the fans to wait for the patch is bull@##$ ... I like the metaphor of the band, as well. This is definitely not the crap I expected from IS. As someone said, the KoToR port was done with respect and integrity and it was modified to the PC environment ... like Uncle Bacon said, do one first and do it RIGHT and then port it to the strengths of the specific environment - castrating a project from the get go relies on no strengths only weaknesses ... :grr:
SirVincealot on 7/12/2003 at 20:02
In Warren's defense, anybody surprised by the final build of DX:IW must have been deliberately ignoring the information in endless previews over the last 18 months. I am certainly disappointed, but I could anticipate all the design changes from the very first PC GAMER preview. The concept sketches, the design focus and the announcement of simultaneous console/PC release was information that was widely available from the get-go. I am not surprised in any way by the gold master.
In Warren's defense, his keynote address at this year's GDC tells us all we reasonably need to know about his company's *current* design ambitions. I, for one, have no interest in anything coming from Ion Storm until a new aesthetic direction is found.
I adjucate extreme caution regarding THIEF 3: doom&gloom and optimism both seem unwarranted.
Fionavar on 7/12/2003 at 20:22
I agree with you SiRVincealot that a lot of these aesthetic and gameplay changes have in fact been know for sometime. A lot of the issues, however, I think stem from the fact that they have been implemented in what seems to be a compromise port - at least to the PC - where these changes, had they been INTENDED for the PC environment might have worked, but since they were geared to a console - which now seems the main focus (I know cynical me ;) ) - has hampered any appeal it might have had in a dedicated PC environment.
SirVincealot on 7/12/2003 at 21:05
I agree wholeheartedly Fionavar, and thank you for stating the points.
I cannot shake the snaking suspicion, however, that a PC-perfect INVISIBLE WAR would still make a game that, though satifying, could not be terribly interesting. There is a disheartening lack of artistic ambition at the very base of DX2 - the two games are not just similar, they are the same game: same decaying appartment buildings, same shady characters, same set of urban environments, same sewers, same labs, same everything.
It could reasonably be argued that these elements are what precisely make a DEUS EX game and that to remove them would be to change the nature of the series. There are two simultaneous fallacies in that belief, however:
-there was only one previous game and so the designers were free to go anywhere, even to go so far as to reveal that the natural laws of DX were illusions.
-I am far from convinced that decaying urban environments, darkness and oppression in and of themselves, make a DX game.
A good example would be THE CAVES OF STEEL and its sequel THE NAKED SUN. You would be hard-pressed to find two books so dissimilar in setting and tone. Yet both address the same fundamental issues, share the same world view and are, undoubtedly, companion pieces.
Here is one of hundreds of ways INVISIBLE WAR might have progressed: after the collapse of the G11 and their economic infrastructure, a power vacuum enabled (insert insular country) to become a dominant production force. This nation, along with corporations from the old G11 - who desperately need back in the game - are building a space station, as a launch pad for the eventual construction of a moon base. Unfortunately, things are not what they seem and persistent rumours about Project Moonbeam may just be right. This framework still allows for magic-tech, sneaking, extreme violence and the sifting of truth by a heretofore ignorant PC (all defining staples of DEUS EX) while being set in starkly clean, brightly-lit, new environments. Of course, the weapon set can now be as futuristic and devastating as you want, missions can take place in zero-G, the vacuum of space becomes both hazard and benefit . . . this is only one of the myriad ways INVISIBLE WAR might have been.
I was more than a little disappointed when Ion Storm announced that their very next game after DEUS EX would be a sequel. I was hoping they would branch out, surprise us, re-invent temselves and eventually come back to the sequel with older, wiser, more open minds.
There is something prophetic in the fact (coincidental, I'm sure) that Spector's proposed name change to MANIFESTO GAMES never came to be.
madphilb on 7/12/2003 at 21:24
Yet considers.... they could have still messed things up (if indeed they did) as some people feel they did with Morrowind.
The conversation system in Morrowind is more like an index (it doesn't use the standard "conversation trees" that most RPGs do, including DX:IW)... yet the program was a PC release 1st and a port to the XBox much 2nd.
I'm a bit disapointed in the loss of some of the features of the original that got toned down (skill system, tighter levels, etc.) but at the same time I'm having a good time with it (took the day off yesterday to play Fallout).
And I'm glad they made an XBox version, otherwise I would not get to play it for a long, long time (read: long after the GOTY version of it goes for $9.99 like the original does now).
Face it, the game is still pretty darn cool, the enviornment and the game world remain intact, etc.
The scaling down problem of games is something the developers will have to work out, DX1 was definately bigger in alot of ways (we're talking one map was 1/3 of a city with two whole apartments, a floor under construction, a lobby, a boat, etc.)... man, if you think the game runs slow now.... picture if they had made the levels that large.
Yet they did manage to explain part of the level size in the game (the architectural design of having all you living and working spaces within walking distance of each other.... it's in there somewhere, a news terminal I think).
On a final note, hope someone thinks about the fact that the XBox is capable of fairly complicated interfaces... KotOR and Morrowind both support full RPG interfaces and inventory systems. DX:IW leans more to the shooter side of things (that's a design issue you'll have to take up with Ion Storm). Reality is that they should have gone with a weapon inventory more like Halo, holding only two guns at a time is much more true to life than having a Flamethrower, SMG, Dart gun (Bowcaster), Pistol, Riot Prod, etc.
Heck, I'd pay just as much money for a game in the DX world made by someone like Bioware in the line of KotOR or even Baulder's Gate.
PHIL
Fionavar on 7/12/2003 at 21:53
SirVincealot,
Again I agree with you - in fact even more so as your potential sequel would have indeed expanded the universe that could have been DX. I think also of the Fallout franchise, which many feel has gone the same route with the console. Unfortunately the $ is driving a lot of creativity into the ground and it will likely be some time before it returns to the PC market. I know a certain person who has a propensity for cookies that feels that things will not change until the "Big Boys" move out of the enthusiast PC market and focus solely on the console - mass market. After that the niche that bore great franchises such as DX and FO, for instance, will return with the same attraction for creativity not held hostage by creativity. Hopefull he is right, for as a PC gamer for a long time, I feel disheartened more than I ever have in regard to the market and what titles I find now are and are not available ... again that's cynical me though ;)
madphilb,
I too agree with you. Unfortunately however, I suspect that my agreement is more a resignation to the fact that more and more often PC gamers have to SETTLE for what they get - in fact when we are charged with having had high hopes, those very critics forget our hopes have been built, often not due to hype, but the intentional involvement of designers who come up with franchises directly related to the input they have received by a nurturing enthusiast gaming community. And when said title is disappointing - rather than in other sectors where the bottow line is actually effected - the designer moves from the niche that made them to the mass market, knowing the smaller enthusiast market does not in fact effect sales. Pure parasitic capitalism to me and something to which, I am unfortunately becoming rather resigned ... again that could just be my cynicism :D
madphilb on 8/12/2003 at 04:56
Who knows what would have happened if Looking Glass had still been running things... there is a place for those Niche markets.... the Mod communities and Scratchware are going to be the best places to find them I think.
Speaking of which... where was the mod community with Deus Ex? There are lots and lots of very good levels for the Theif series (since it was single player only), but I never did find much for either Deus Ex or System Shock. Mostly I think those games didn't have as much development because of how complicated those games are compared to Thief (from a design standpoint).
Honestly, the industry is about enough to make any of us cynical. Amongst other genres, I'm a RTS fan... yet I found that C&C: Red Alert 2 was extremly short compared to the others (though part of that might have had to do with improved performance on my part)... and most of the FPSers that I've played in the past few years (mostly titles from a year or so back) have gotten shorter and shorter, often not even using some of the best features of the design (such as the GeoMod technology in Red Faction, it all but disapears in the later levels).
PHIL
Fionavar on 8/12/2003 at 07:59
Quote:
Originally posted by madphilb Speaking of which... where was the mod community with Deus Ex? PHIL
Now I NO authority, yet from what I understand the DX community suffered ALOT from the lack of open source when augementing the DX world due to no SDK ... I know it is not an "EXCUSE", yet it is, at the very least, a mitigating factor fwiiw :?
