If the new Thief's stealth is as much fun to play as Dishonored's stealth... - by Thirith
Nuth on 9/4/2013 at 14:45
Maybe balance will be addressed by difficulty levels. Make it possible to hack your way through the game on Easy and progressively harder to do that as you increase the difficulty level. I'm not necessarily talking about no kill objectives. The guards could become tougher and more skilled fighters.
Renault on 9/4/2013 at 15:05
Just for fun, I checked the manual for TDP in regards to combat, here's what it says:
Quote:
COMBAT
Sometimes, thieving can be made easier by a measured application of force.
Usually, this means a stealthy sword-blow from behind, or a well-placed
arrow shot from a place of concealment. In a desperate situation, a frontal
one-on-one melee may be the best option. Hey, it's always good to have
options.
edit: The Thief 2 manual has the above text, and also adds this:
Quote:
If there are two or more guards bearing down on you, running away is almost always a better option than fighting.
Notice it says "
sometimes," and "a
measured application of force." Even the combat examples it gives are actually stealthy - sniping from the shadows and backstabbing. The only recommendation of head-on combat is out of desperation.
Petike the Taffer on 9/4/2013 at 15:30
Personally speaking, I think Teeth won't be utterly toothless in regards to tense, exciting, hardcore stealth. However, I shall wait and see. :thumb:
(And pardon my mischievous puns. Couldn't resist. ;) :o)
Quote Posted by Brethren
Notice it says "
sometimes," and "a
measured application of force." Even the combat examples it gives are actually stealthy - sniping from the shadows and backstabbing. The only recommendation of head-on combat is out of desperation.
Word. I'm hoping for the same general attitude in the new game. :cool:
jtr7 on 9/4/2013 at 23:03
Yep. The wording is chosen well, except for the problem people have with the whole series and that's seeing a loophole and claiming it's wide open, given an inch and taking a mile.
Renault on 10/4/2013 at 00:07
There's a (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5OR9f7cQxWE) podcast from Joystiq (also added it to the article list stickied in this forum) that I would recommend taking a look at because it comes directly from someone who's viewed the existing Thief demo. The Thief content is all in the first 15 minutes or so, but I couldn't help but notice this portion:
Quote:
When you sneak, you can sort of do this little dash into shadow and out of shadow, forward and backwards, it's kind of like the Blink ability in Dishonored.
But it gives you sort of the sense of momentum and like you can create those moments when someone catches your foot and they're not sure if you were actually there or it was a rat or something.
They just kind of like briefly glimpse you.
Not really digging that comparison to Blink, he really makes it seem like you go from point A to point B instantly, without being seen. The same guy also states at the beginning about the game as a whole that "there is a slight magical element to it, and that manifests in your abilities." He does also add near the end though that the "classic mode" does disable all of your abilities, as well as get rid of the on-screen markers and such.
There's also some interesting stuff in there about the light gem/Cloak effect, Focus, and how Garrett's hands are very prominent in the game and core to the gameplay. I'm too lazy to transcribe it all, but definitely check it out for yourselves.
Nuth on 10/4/2013 at 00:19
Quote Posted by Brethren
The same guy also states at the beginning about the game as a whole that "there is a slight magical element to it, and that manifests in your abilities."
Yikes! That sounds like they've stripped magic out completely except for Garrett's new powers. One of my biggest fears has been that they were going to lose the ambiance of Thief and make a game that's too mundane. It may be a good game about thieving, but it's looking more and more like it's not going to be a good Thief game. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but this Eidos is completely blind.
Captain Spandex on 10/4/2013 at 00:28
Not a chance.
Audio is one of the core pillars of Thief gameplay, and it's non-existent in Dishonored. No sound propagation, no emphasis on listening to your own footsteps or to those of your enemies.
Shadow-based stealth is also one of the core pillars of Thief gameplay. Once again, in Dishonored, it's streamlined into oblivion.
Thief needs to be much, much better than Dishonored. On all levels.
And luckily, so far, it sounds like it is.
SuicideMachine on 10/4/2013 at 01:20
Around the time, when NuThief was first announced a friend posted a link to first GameInformer issue. At that time, I already stated I have great concerns, especially that right from the start it reminded me a little too much of Dishonored. He asked me - "Is that bad? Was Dishonored a bad game?" I answered - "No. But Thief is not suppose to be like Dishonored."
Few weeks went by... and I feel even more concerned - I really don't want Thief to be like Dishonored. Not because Dishonored was a bad game. But it was different... and I would like Thief to do its own thing, while any potential sequel to Dishonored continues to do its own thing... just like Hitman does its own thing... or Splinter Cell*.
*actually, one can argue about SC since Conviction... for right reasons
SilenTaffer on 10/4/2013 at 01:45
Quote Posted by Brethren
I want combat to be a desperate option, not an equal option to stealth. You should never start a Thief level thinking - hmm, do I want to go the combat or stealth route for this mission?
Absolutely right, I cannot put it better in words. In this certain aspect, it will be slightly similar to Dishonored's gameplay.
EM is going this the wrong way when they toned down the vulnerability in the game, focus ability, forward dash "blink" ability, 3rd person takedowns, high action sequences. It also does not help when the player is clued in with the objectives flashing and popping up, hinting about the solutions they might be able to take, navigation markers etc. Even though these options may be turned off, it would have ruined the original intention and design of Thief, a true blue stealth game which did not hand-hold the player through the missions.
When Thief 4 comes out, I wonder how many of us would actually stick to the standard Thief gameplay when we are given more options to gameplay or when the situation eventually rises when you are facing three or four guards due to a slight mistake. I honestly liked Thief for its challenge and therefore, I hope that EM has also progressed the game in terms of difficulty (Smarter AIs, New enemies etc) in order to justify the increase in options to make the game easier. Despite saying all that, what I actually see hopeful out of this is probably easier maneuverability: mantling may not be a tedious affair any longer.
If Thief 4 becomes like Dishonored gameplay, I would definitely be disappointed initially but in the end, I'm sure I will treat it as though as it is EM's take on the Thief game and not affliated to the original series in any way, just a tribute to the Thief legacy we hold dear.
Renzatic on 10/4/2013 at 02:12
Quote Posted by SilenTaffer
EM is going this the wrong way when they toned down the vulnerability in the game, focus ability, forward dash "blink" ability, 3rd person takedowns, high action sequences. It also does not help when the player is clued in with the objectives flashing and popping up, hinting about the solutions they might be able to take, navigation markers etc. Even though these options may be turned off, it would have ruined the original intention and design of Thief, a true blue stealth game which did not hand-hold the player through the missions.
There are the way things sound, and the way things actually play out. There's only been one thing I've read that sounds absolutely terrible to me, and that's being able to "stick" to rafters and thin walkways. That takes away some of the challenge, and I don't like it.
But the rest all depends on how it's implemented in the game. Like 3rd person takedowns, focus ability, the forward dash blink thing? It'll ruin the game if it's too overpowered, but if they're all things you can only do on rare occasions, but everything plays about the same as you'd expect out of a Thief game otherwise, then there's really no problem (unless you think even their mere presence somehow taints the game).
For example, before Deus Ex came out, there were things mentioned that made it sound like it was going to be a teetotal automated quick time event cluster...er...love. How it actually turned out? I think I busted through a wall all of twice, and the takedown animations didn't make the game any easier since you couldn't spam them over and over again. It was a pretty challenging game overall (and sometimes not in a good way due to those freaking horrible boss fights).
I think Thief is going to end up about the same way. Barring sticky rafters (I hope they take that out for classic mode), everything I've read doesn't sound terrible by itself. As long as the devs are telling the truth, that running through the game as a melee master is NOT an easy thing to do, and the major focus is on Thief style stealth gameplay despite the new additions, then I'm good.
I'll admit that I'm a little less conservative about the series than other people, and I can understand why people are concerned. But I do think (actually know) that there are some people reading the worst case scenario into everything around here.
Want an example? The new objective popups. In old Thief, you'd get a theeng-ding and a *objective updated* pop up at the bottom of the screen. New Thief probably theeng-dings, then pops the objectives text up right when you get them. The only difference is you had to go to the objectives screen to see what the update was. New Thief just tells you right away.
And it's not like Thief telling you exactly what to do to beat the level is a new thing. There were plenty of times in the old games where they'd say something like "grab the poison from blah to cause a distraction so you can sneak out through the sewers". Don't treat New Thief telling you to turn off the fans to do whatever as an optional objective is somehow dumbing the game down. It's almost exactly the same.
