I never liked Vodka anyways... - by Thief13x
Starrfall on 13/4/2008 at 16:37
Quote Posted by heretic
Keeping everyone in jail/prison is not practical.
An earnest attempt at stopping or even drastically slowing down the traffic through our borders is, which will of course prevent the more serious crimes commited by some illegals from ever occuring. Regardless, any comparison of illegals with our citizens in this regard is redundant, criminal or not. The term citizen means something, which you well know.
In areas where Law Enforcement has become serious about control such as Oklahoma or Arizona the situation has become managable easier than anyone predicted through attrition. Illegals are actually leaving before the laws take effect.
All I was getting at is that the cops weren't somehow derelict in their duties, because they treated this guy just like they're supposed to. Enforcing the federal immigration laws isn't currently part of their job.
If Californians want it to be, our recourse is through the normal political methods. However I suspect that it would be hard to do since California seems to have a decent grasp on how important 5 million workers and consumers are to the economy, and not everyone wants to wade through five years of shit while the free market sorts itself out.
You see why there's so many problems with California enforcing the immgiration laws? Say California decides to chip in and start working to expel illegals with the expectation that this action will help drive reform of the laws. This takes time and resources, and diverts law enforcement from their normal duties, even if we're only going after the ones with a court order against them. Once they're rounded up, they have to be kept somewhere. Californias prison system is already overburdened and hasn't been able to provide constitutionally adequate facilities to citizen inmates. Maybe the feds will take some of them, but they probably don't have room for everyone either and anyways you'll still have to hold them in state facilities for a day or two, at least, while the transfer can be arranged. And remember that the Board of Immigration Appeals only has 11 members now, when 23 wasn't enough earlier. This is going to take a very long time.
So after that hassle, we've got some jobs that need filling, and whitey won't do it. Seriously. He isn't having that "bend over eight hours a day picking strawberries" shit. That shit is HARD. It's hard enough that people on welfare who have the jobs shoved in their faces won't take them. (My source for this is officials at the California Department of Food and Agriculture, where I have worked. I can probably get an affadavit or something if you really want one, but what it will tell you is that when farmers teamed up with welfare agencies and make 300 job offers, 3 people showed up to work.)
Agriculture is particularly time sensitive. If you can't get the crop in, it rots in the fields. California agriculture is a 32 billion dollar industry.
You're also now losing out on the value the immigants bring as consumers. Circulation of wealth, sales tax, gas tax, cigarette tax, the rental market, all of it.
So California is taking a hit, and now it's extra fucked because it can't do
anything to fix the immigration system itself. This is the big problem: a few states will have big issues like this, but those states are entirely at the mercy of the feds because only the feds have the power to put a working system in place. And the states that aren't affected don't give a shit, they're just happy knowing that the mexicans won't be coming to get them any more. Charlie Norwood doesn't give a shit, his constituents (who are not Californian) are happy and so his job is done. So while Congress is dragging its heels and bickering over whether or not a guest worker program is amnesty and all this nonsense, California is taking the losses of time spent on enforcing the federal immigration laws, the loss of the value of the labor, the loss of the value of having more consumers, and can't do a damn thing about it.
Enforce a shitty immigration system (that isn't even ours) at our expense, lose a valuable labor pool, lose a valuable tax pool, and await for the indulgence of Congress to work out a system that will bring those immigrants back legally? No thanks. If Congress and Charlie Norwood want help, they need to fix the system
first so we don't get fucked over by the consequences of a system that doesn't let us legally bring in the people we need and want. If the feds can't enforce what they have, it's by no means our responsibility to help shore it up.
Illegal immigration IS the market working, and the market says the demand for this labor is too great for your puny immigration laws to stop.
I realize you might not necessarily be talking about rounding up ALL illegals (what are you talking about, actually?), I'm just trying to flesh out why the idea that states should get involved is a bad one. California in particular, since this is where I live and I believe our situation to be quite distinct from Arizona's and Oklahoma's... what Arizona and Oklahoma choose to do is not really my business, but I would be interested to see the long term economic effects of the measures those states have taken. My guess is that it won't be positive.
Ghostly Apparition on 13/4/2008 at 17:10
Quote Posted by Mortal Monkey
Thanks, that makes it clear. I just didn't think you really meant that, considering how you were preaching about it being tragic no matter who gets killed. Carry on.
I have no idea what you are saying here. No, really, what are you getting at?
Illegal commits first crime, does his time, then law enforcement turns him over to INS who summarily deport him( I know! legal proceedings and legal mumbo jumbo must precede this) Therefore he is not in the U.S. to commit further crimes, such as shooting someone. Why wouldn't I mean that? For that matter why would you be against deporting criminals?
It seems to be common sense to me, not about right or left or conservative or liberal. But about removing the criminal element from our streets who don't have the right to be here in the first place.
Quote Posted by Starrfall
So after that hassle, we've got some jobs that need filling, and whitey won't do it. Seriously. He isn't having that "bend over eight hours a day picking strawberries" shit. That shit is HARD. It's hard enough that people on welfare who have the jobs shoved in their faces won't take them. (My source for this is officials at the California Department of Food and Agriculture, where I have worked. I can probably get an affadavit or something if you really want one, but what it will tell you is that when farmers teamed up with welfare agencies and make 300 job offers, 3 people showed up to work.)
Agriculture is particularly time sensitive. If you can't get the crop in, it rots in the fields. California agriculture is a 32 billion dollar industry.
You're also now losing out on the value the immigants bring as consumers. Circulation of wealth, sales tax, gas tax, cigarette tax, the rental market, all of it.
.
You're right Whitey(racist term but you used it first) won't do HARD work.
Do you make that assumption because you won't do hard work? or have you conducted a poll of some sort? I guess all that HARD ass construction work I do all day is a figment of my imagination?
You're probably right they won't pick strawberries, but thats the argument that always get laid out when people don't look at the facts.
Obviously they would have to make some concessions for the agriculture industry, but again I will say because I know that 12 million illegals aren't out picking strawberries, there aren't that many strawberries to be picked.
So where are the rest of the illegals? hmm, let me think.... oh they are taking jobs in the construction and manufacturing industry, driving down wages. Good for the corporations, bad for the workers and the overall economy as the average worker has less dollars to spend. Remember that tax rebate stimulus package that Bush is giving out to improve the economy? even the chimp knows its the consumer that drives the economy.
Mortal Monkey on 13/4/2008 at 18:24
Quote Posted by Ghostly Apparition
Illegal commits first crime, does his time, then law enforcement turns him over to INS who summarily deport him( I know! legal proceedings and legal mumbo jumbo must precede this) Therefore he is not in the U.S. to commit further crimes, such as shooting someone.
I must admit I didn't read the article you posted all that thoroughly. Oh wait, you never did post the article, did you?
The only conclusion I can make is that the murderer had a personal grudge against the victim, and would have no incentive to kill anyone else. I refuse to believe that you would be so dense that you couldn't grasp that crime actually happens outside the US as well.
heretic on 13/4/2008 at 18:39
Quote Posted by Starrfall
So after that hassle, we've got some jobs that need filling, and whitey won't do it. Seriously. He isn't having that "bend over eight hours a day picking strawberries" shit. That shit is HARD. It's hard enough that people on welfare who have the jobs shoved in their faces won't take them. (My source for this is officials at the California Department of Food and Agriculture, where I have worked. I can probably get an affadavit or something if you really want one, but what it will tell you is that when farmers teamed up with welfare agencies and make 300 job offers, 3 people showed up to work.)
I'm not the least concerned with whether or not LE is actually doing their job. If it is not their duty, than it should be. Things would not be so difficult if we had secured our border in the first place, but we haven't.
Since one out of every 5 (
http://www.urban.org/publications/410366.html) inmates is an illegal, if you are worried about overpopulation that would be a good place to start.
I don't doubt what you say, but could that be because welfare pays better? I don't think there are any (
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003265139_imprices19.html) jobs Americans won't do for fair wages. Id be willing to bet that if Americans (white or not) are not doing these jobs now it's because the wages have been driven down by illegal labor. Landscapers used to make 10.00 an hour here in the north state, way back in 1997. Now they make 8.00,
10 years later. Americans and
legal migrant workers already make up the vast majority of the workforce in any of these industries as things stand. Illegals only make up around 4% of the workforce overall. The legal migrants that can longer afford to take these jobs might now get paid their worth and close the gap. The big-wigs that are the only ones to truly benefit from this may have to tighten their belt a notch, much like our own unskilled labor pool has been doing for many a year now.
Edit: One thing I would add-
Any effective control method should include a robust overhaul to the migrant worker system. If they can't get here via coyote ETC, they will come legally. Especially if we make it not such a goatfuck as it is to do now. Do you see any reason why we could not get the help we need and have it be mutually beneficial for all involved? My main reason for this is that it would weed out the bad apples so to speak. As it stands we are doing next to nothing about the lesser percentage of illegal immigrants that are in fact hardened criminals. Why not work towards stopping them before they get in? We all know that the vast majority of migrants are coming here to work, surely we can devise a system to make this happen where screening is a major part of the process but we still get the help we need, when we need it.
Ghostly Apparition on 13/4/2008 at 20:22
Quote Posted by Mortal Monkey
I must admit I didn't read the article you posted all that thoroughly. Oh wait, you never did post the article, did you?
The only conclusion I can make is that the murderer had a personal grudge against the victim, and would have no incentive to kill anyone else. I refuse to believe that you would be so dense that you couldn't grasp that crime actually happens outside the US as well.
So, what are you arguing now? That crime happens everywhere so oh well, thems the breaks? Stick our collective heads in the sand and do nothing?
Or are you just harping that I didn't post this article:
(
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-shaw23mar23,1,5451309.story)
Ok Maybe he had a personal grudge against the guy, thats your argument now.
And maybe this illegal had a personal grudge against two long beach police officers too, and maybe the sky is purple in your world, I don't know.
(
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53558)
Of course crime happens outside the U.S. as well, but I don't think theres such a shortage of crime in the U.S. that we need to import any do we?
Starrfall on 13/4/2008 at 23:24
Quote Posted by heretic
Any effective control method should include a robust overhaul to the migrant worker system. If they can't get here via coyote ETC, they will come legally. Especially if we make it not such a goatfuck as it is to do now. Do you see any reason why we could not get the help we need and have it be mutually beneficial for all involved? My main reason for this is that it would weed out the bad apples so to speak. As it stands we are doing next to nothing about the lesser percentage of illegal immigrants that are in fact hardened criminals. Why not work towards stopping them before they get in? We all know that the vast majority of migrants are coming here to work, surely we can devise a system to make this happen where screening is a major part of the process but we still get the help we need, when we need it.
I agree with this, and I think the migrant worker system should be one of the first things to be overhauled.
Quote Posted by Ghostly Apparition
You're right Whitey(racist term but you used it first) won't do HARD work.
Do you make that assumption because you won't do hard work? or have you conducted a poll of some sort? I guess all that HARD ass construction work I do all day is a figment of my imagination?
You're probably right they won't pick strawberries, but thats the argument that always get laid out when people don't look at the facts.
Obviously they would have to make some concessions for the agriculture industry, but again I will say because I know that 12 million illegals aren't out picking strawberries, there aren't that many strawberries to be picked.
So where are the rest of the illegals? hmm, let me think.... oh they are taking jobs in the construction and manufacturing industry, driving down wages. Good for the corporations, bad for the workers and the overall economy as the average worker has less dollars to spend. Remember that tax rebate stimulus package that Bush is giving out to improve the economy? even the chimp knows its the consumer that drives the economy.
Hey relax man.
Mortal Monkey on 13/4/2008 at 23:49
Quote Posted by Ghostly Apparition
Ok Maybe he had a personal grudge against the guy, thats your argument now.
Actually, that was the only counter-argument that could prove that you really aren't as ignorant as you make yourself appear.
My argument all along was that this guy was unstable, and if you'd deport him he'd just kill someone else. And you think that's perfectly okay. Because it didn't happen in the US.
It's just common sense, right?
Ghostly Apparition on 14/4/2008 at 01:39
Quote Posted by Mortal Monkey
Actually, that was the only counter-argument that could prove that you really aren't as ignorant as you make yourself appear.
My argument all along was that this guy was unstable, and if you'd deport him he'd just kill someone else. And you think that's perfectly okay. Because it didn't happen in the US.
It's just common sense, right?
okay, So your argument is its not okay to deport him because he's unstable and might kill someone in his home country, so just let him go on the streets here? What about the guy who tried to kill the two police officers? is he unstable too? or is he just a violent criminal? Should they have politely asked him to stop shooting at us, and let him go on his merry way?
I'm really trying to follow your train of thought here. What do you think they should do with illegals that commit violent crimes or get caught with Guns/weapons here?
Since when is it the U.S. policy to worry about what illegals do once they are deported? Thats just assinine. Until you stop arguing with me for the sake of argument and put forth some better idea, Yeah, you're damn right deport them to thier home country and let the police there figure out what to do with him. That is not our job. If he's unstable let them lock him up. We have enough violent offenders here to deal with. (or unstable people if thats the term you like better)
Tell me your solution or quit being an ass.
Mortal Monkey on 14/4/2008 at 09:28
Quote Posted by Ghostly Apparition
What about the guy who tried to kill the two police officers?
Funny you should mention him; he was deported several times.
Quote Posted by Ghostly Apparition
I'm really trying to follow your train of thought here. What do you think they should do with illegals that commit violent crimes or get caught with Guns/weapons here?
Put them in prison, unless their country of origin actually can take care of them. After they've served their time, it's just a waste to deport them.
You let most of your own criminals loose on the streets after they've served their time, don't you? If they then go and do another crime, there was nothing that could be done. Your chauvinistic retrospective wisdom in the following quote isn't actually helping anyone.
Quote Posted by Ghostly Apparition
But the reason I noted that particular incident is that the murder could have been prevented had the police [deported him].
