I never liked Vodka anyways... - by Thief13x
heretic on 12/4/2008 at 02:49
Quote Posted by Stitch
Actually, you bring up some good points that I'd like to go into further when I have the time. For the most part I think you and I would agree more or less on what the dimensions of the problem are, even if we disagree on the best possible solution.
Fair enough, and I appreciate the reply. As with any issue of this magnitude there is sure to be room for growth on either side.
Starrfall on 12/4/2008 at 03:39
Quote Posted by heretic
The $1200.00US pricetag per average household that this costs is a lot of scratch when it isn't of mutual benefit to the people actually paying it.
It's more like eight dollars per person each year. I'll send you eight bucks if you want.
Ladron De La Noche on 12/4/2008 at 03:41
The murder of the young black kid in Los Angeles is used as a political tool by anti-immigrant foes, this is called "picking the rotten cherry" and is used to bash the whole group of the undocumented. It is done again and again and again by the hard right. Nary have I ever seen or read the concern of the undocumented that are robbed, beaten and shot on the streets of America. It does occur and I have read countless stories of these incidents and these are only the ones that are actually filed. Many undocumented that are victims of crime do not report these incidents for fear of deportation and seperation from their families. I have seen this reaction first hand in an incident long ago, this person was undocumented and a victim of a robbery by a black and slashed and would not seek medical attention or file a report. The reason for not filing a report? Fear of deportation.
To say that if they did not come here illegally, they would not be victims is laughable. They are here by the millions, it is to late.
I find it to be the height of hypocrisy that hard right white conservatives give a goddamn about inner-city blacks and their plight when they want virtually nothing to do with them or their neighborhoods. Spare me the crocodile tears.
heretic on 12/4/2008 at 03:52
Quote Posted by Starrfall
It's more like eight dollars per person each year. I'll send you eight bucks if you want.
Please post your sources as I have mine, forgive me for not just taking your word.
If you assume my links are suspect then that's certainly understandable. In that case feel free to find your own.
(
http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html) Cost breakdown
(
http://www.cis.org/) (Also in Espanol)
heretic on 12/4/2008 at 04:16
Quote Posted by Ladron De La Noche
I find it to be the height of hypocrisy that hard right white conservatives give a goddamn about inner-city blacks and their plight when they want virtually nothing to do with them or their neighborhoods. Spare me the crocodile tears.
At the end of the day the ugly truth is that any crime commited by an illegal could have been prevented if the one who commited the crime was not allowed entry to begin with. Drop the emotional baggage that you are trying to attach. Everyone knows that the majority of illegals are not murderers, rapists or thugs. The problem is, some are. The crimes commited by them are uniquely preventable by stricter enforcement of what is allready the law.
..and if you want this to go anywhere, spare the sanctimonious bullshit like that quoted above.
How many conservatives do you actually know? Also, it's not just the inner city or blacks that are effected. Do you know how our (US) economy works?
Edit: No one in their right mind would consider me a "hard right conservative", just trust me on that.
Ghostly Apparition on 12/4/2008 at 17:20
Quote Posted by Ladron De La Noche
The murder of the young black kid in Los Angeles is used as a political tool by anti-immigrant foes, this is called "picking the rotten cherry" and is used to bash the whole group of the undocumented. It is done again and again and again by the hard right. Nary have I ever seen or read the concern of the undocumented that are robbed, beaten and shot on the streets of America. It does occur and I have read countless stories of these incidents and these are only the ones that are actually filed. Many undocumented that are victims of crime do not report these incidents for fear of deportation and seperation from their families. I have seen this reaction first hand in an incident long ago, this person was undocumented and a victim of a robbery by a black and slashed and would not seek medical attention or file a report. The reason for not filing a report? Fear of deportation.
To say that if they did not come here illegally, they would not be victims is laughable. They are here by the millions, it is to late.
laughable?, maybe you're laughing but I'm not. But the inescapable truth is if they did not come here maybe they wouldn't be victims. They are not just crime statistics but people, capable of making decisions. In any decision I would make regarding something as momentous as moving to another country
would be they fact that I might not be able to avail myself of services and/or police protection in the event of a crime. Too say they are complete victims of their circumstances is the height of ridiculous. You are responsible for your decisions are you not? So should they be. They moral of the story I posted earlier and you alluded too is the guy who committed a crime was NOT deported but released following his jail sentence. If they are not going to deport someone who commits a crime I can't imagine a circumstance where they would deport someone for reporting one. In fact, LAPD has a policy that is publicly stated that they won't deport or incarcerate an illegal for just reporting a crime.
Also to reiterate, I am the furthest thing you will find from a hard right conservative. That talk does not further the discussion here.
Mortal Monkey on 12/4/2008 at 20:37
Quote Posted by Ghostly Apparition
See, this is where preconceived notions are a troubling thing. He actually did kill a Mexican. A Mexican-American, a person of Hispanic descent born and raised here, as were his parents. Just because the person killed was of Mexican descent doesn't make it any less tragic does it?
I guess I just don't see how deporting a criminal
instead of giving him jail time* is going to prevent him from murdering someone. Care to explain?
* Wait, you want to give them jail time and deport them immediately afterwards? With suggestions like that you won't need to go to war to get rid of all that darn tax money.
Ghostly Apparition on 12/4/2008 at 22:05
Quote Posted by Mortal Monkey
I guess I just don't see how deporting a criminal
instead of giving him jail time* is going to prevent him from murdering someone. Care to explain?
* Wait, you want to give them jail time and deport them immediately afterwards? With suggestions like that you won't need to go to war to get rid of all that darn tax money.
First of all, the Irag war is costing us 250 million dollars a day, every day. A billion and a half or so every week. I can't imagine even if it were possible that it would cost anywhere near what the Iraq war has cost to deport all 12 million of them. I'm only talking about deporting the criminals. Unless you care to put them up at your house perhaps?
Besides, isn't the law now that illegals are supposed to be deported?
Or is the reason that is being ignored that omg we need more money for the Iraq war?
Second, your comment implies that its ok to shoot someone down in the street as long as its a Mexican? Care to elaborate on that? I don't think even the most racist people among us would sign off on gunbattles between Mexicans on the streets.
Get a grip.
Starrfall on 12/4/2008 at 22:24
Quote Posted by Ghostly Apparition
You are responsible for your decisions are you not? So should they be. They moral of the story I posted earlier and you alluded too is the guy who committed a crime was NOT deported but released following his jail sentence.
The LAPD treated this exactly like they treat every other criminal: he did his time and was released, like hundreds of criminals are on a regular basis. And like many criminals before him, he committed another crime. Now I will admit that had they turned him over to the feds, this crime in particular would not have happened. And then I will suggest that as long as we're going with that line of thinking, every jail sentence should be for life, because if we never let any criminals out of jail, none will fall into recidivism.
LAPD should not be expected nor required to enforce
federal immigration laws as well as take care of their own duties. The demand on their resources would be immense, and either way the LAPD can't just summarily deport people. At some point you need an immigration judge in there, and then there are possible appeals to the Board of Immigration Appeals, and then possible further appeals to United States Circuit Courts. Thrown into all this are various twists like cancellation of removal, asylum, deferred action, objections to destination, and so on. It's not like everyone without a valid social security number is just dropped on the other side of the border.
Aggravated felonies
are grounds for deportation, and aliens in removal proceedings based on aggravated felonies
are detained. There's actually a lot of argument that the feds detain too
many aliens when release on OR would be appropriate - it clogs up the prison systems and can pose huge problems for trying to make your case when you're up in front of the IJ.
But this is all federal law, not state law, and it's not the responsibility of the states to administrate the broken system the feds have in place. You're going to tell me it could be as simple as just turning illegals over to the feds, but then I will ask if you think California law enforcement officials should be turning over medical marijuana users to the feds so the feds can bring them up on felony drug charges? If your answer is yes then we've found a point of disagreement that I'm not sure we can move beyond.
