brunnern on 25/7/2002 at 18:21
CounterStrike, ruined by cheats.
Diablo I, ruined by cheats.
Diablo II, ruined by cheats.
Half-life TFC, ruined by cheats.
Everquest, ruined by powergamers.
Text-based MUDS, ruined by powergamers.
Cheaters/Powergamers have taken "fun" away from games that have been fantastic fun for 2 weeks. Then we have people who have NO job and nothing to do, and gains 100 levels in 2.5 weeks, then runs around beating you down. Oh and don't forget about the lack of RolePlay powergamers do.
Multiplayer games have been, IMHO, beaten to a bloody pulp by cheaters.
People, in general SUCK, so there isn't a way to stop them from cheating.
I don't have to worry about some level 12 redguard running up to me asking me if I will "party with him" and then having him launch 35n21 powered fireball up my ass.
Single player in this game is the way to go. Maybe LAN would be REALLY cool too, but no open multiplayer games. I also believe Morrowind would self destruct if it had to account for more than one person running around, killing everyone and taking all the stuff to one location. Seeing how it can barely handle just me, (1 crash a day is ... ok?)
Either way, a small group of adventurer's running about kicking ass would be great fun. but thats it... (drools at the idea of VPN's and Morrowind 5-Person multiplayer)
sorry about the rant, lots of built up aggression towards cheaters...
knife.
VetMichael on 25/7/2002 at 18:45
CounterStrike, ruined by cheats.
Diablo I, ruined by cheats.
Diablo II, ruined by cheats.
Half-life TFC, ruined by cheats.
Everquest, ruined by powergamers.
Text-based MUDS, ruined by powergamers.
Cheaters/Powergamers have taken "fun" away from games that have been fantastic fun for 2 weeks. Then we have people who have NO job and nothing to do, and gains 100 levels in 2.5 weeks, then runs around beating you down. Oh and don't forget about the lack of RolePlay powergamers do.
Multiplayer games have been, IMHO, beaten to a bloody pulp by cheaters.
People, in general SUCK, so there isn't a way to stop them from cheating.
I don't have to worry about some level 12 redguard running up to me asking me if I will "party with him" and then having him launch 35n21 powered fireball up my ass.
Single player in this game is the way to go. Maybe LAN would be REALLY cool too, but no open multiplayer games. I also believe Morrowind would self destruct if it had to account for more than one person running around, killing everyone and taking all the stuff to one location. Seeing how it can barely handle just me, (1 crash a day is ... ok?)
Either way, a small group of adventurer's running about kicking ass would be great fun. but thats it... (drools at the idea of VPN's and Morrowind 5-Person multiplayer)
sorry about the rant, lots of built up aggression towards cheaters...originall posted by Brunnern
Praise the Lord! can I get an "Amen!" my brothers and (scattered) sisters.
I also got fed up with "Ever Twink" (EQ) and sick of getting ambushed on "Anarchy Online". There is enough power gaming available here in the single player game...I can NOT imagine just how many power-twinker-wankers would be out there in a multi. I say HUZZAH to Bethesda for their courageous stand to keep this game single player only...so many questions in the PC game mags ask (inevitably) "so, will this support multiplayer? how big will your online world?" and so forth.
There are way too many 'bastard children of Doom' out there as it is and the software production companies are getting really knee-jerk about putting out more Doom/Unreal/Quake-like shooters on the market with little or no story involved in the gaming.
So, I tip my hat to Bethesda for putting out an exemplary game, complete with the tools to create whole new worlds for the user to explore. Now, I shall vacate the soap-box in deference to the next ranter.
:sweat:
JoJangles on 25/7/2002 at 21:49
QuoteLand:
CounterStrike, ruined by cheats.
Diablo I, ruined by cheats.
Diablo II, ruined by cheats.
Half-life TFC, ruined by cheats.
Everquest, ruined by powergamers.
Text-based MUDS, ruined by powergamers.
EndQuoteLand
Cstrike: bsd.clantsn.com... My friends admin that server( [tsn] ) and there are few cheaters. Get into a respectable clan with a high rep server and you rid yourself of cheats... instead of being a pubber.
Diablo1: I lub that game! Get into a clan and play with friends(besides d1 being mostly dead etc)
D2: See d1 (
http://ee.lagparty.org)
HL TFC: see Cstrike
EQ: Fair question... While I could find a few answers(training ME on the way to raids etc) tell me how us powergamers 'ruin' the game experience of those who dedicate less time to it than us? (BTW, my guild killed Sontalak for the first time the other day).
EQ seems to have a good number of zones (over 100 iirc) and very few zones are populated by many high levels, in fact, those who play EQ casually have very many areas in the game by themselves for the most part(except the occasional epic raid, I rarely go to the old world continents(antonica/faydwer etc))...
Not arguing really(but I will when you provide an explanation, mind you), just wondering how I would ruin your gameplay experience as a casual gamer in EQ
Text based etc: I regretfully haven't played much... but I bet all the examples provided would prove to be against your thoughts here.
Oh, and to whoever said 'Evertwink', here's my thought... if you don't like someone having better stuff than they could acquire at their level, make a new guy, get him to a high level, acquire that stuff, and then give it to your current guy. About 80 percent of twinks have high level characters who they want another class(IE: their twink) at their current level, for grouping/plvling/raiding or whatever, so naturally they shouldn't have had to put up through the same stuff as they did with their original characters... eh? The other 20 percent are those who have friends either online or off(IE: wife/son/father) and they get those lovely FBSSs and what not...
Twinking is a natural distribution of goods to speed up the process of lowby trash levels...
It's cute seeing the fans of a genre who are constantly defending themselves of such facts of 'RPGs take little skill' (Who say they get their enjoyment out of a game through imagination etc instead of a solid gameplay) attack such fab games as quake saying that they have no depth... of course mp fps have little depth, it's all about the 'skill' of the player, and the abilities put forth, not roleplaying... RPG and FPS are apples and oranges, both may be poison to me because I'm allergic to fresh fruits, but the fact is that some enjoy FPS because they require skill, and some enjoy RPG because they require imagination... I like both, but generally I have an Ultima 4 view on all RPGs... IE: get teh phat lewtz and decapitate everything in sight... but who is anyone to say that my approach is lesser then theirs? If you like to be an ugly wood elf rogue, then so be it... I like to be a baba... it's my groove.
As for MP not being good and ruining a game... How could Multiplayer ruin a singleplayer game(besides that the devs might neglect to appropriate as much time neccesary to build a proper singleplayer game) Quite simply, the directional flow of enjoyable games for me, and many other gamers is in the multiplayer field. There we can express ourselves as individuals in a world full of others, instead of playing by ourselves against a computer. The thrill of supremacy pulls many to the field of the multiplayer, where time, dedication, and skill suspend the greater over the lesser(in the field of gaming)
While some games will always come out as singleplayer (MW for example, but there are many more), other games(whose proportional value will increase as time/tech goes on, most assuradly) will be more multiplayer... but very few games are multiplayer only now,(even EQ has a solid singleplayer... eqtutorial.exe!!)
There will always be room for the casual singleplayer gamer who likes RPGs(RPGs being one of the biggest game markets out now) in singleplayer form, but those who wish to put their mettle to the test against other such combatants like the multiplayer form of gaming...
(Oh, and it'd be incredibly difficult to easily put mw in multiplayer, unless you had some system(which whould exceed the easily part) to save multiple people on a save game etc...
MW could never make a proper MP game unless it was changed horribly.
Hate not that which you do not know.
The Skill is the lifeblood of the arena, nothing else.
(BTW, I'm not flaming anyone, since I can't remember who this was in response to, I'm just offering my point of view, if you want to get mad at me, send me an IM or do so on this forum, but I have to keep my anger and blood pressure down or I'll die =(
(PS: Striker, email me at [email]JoJangles1029@hotmail.com[/email] or IM me at Jimmyw44)
Forsythe on 25/7/2002 at 22:32
Quote:
Originally posted by JoJangles Text based etc: I regretfully haven't played much... but I bet all the examples provided would prove to be against your thoughts here.Hmm.. having been an Arch-wiz on an LP MUD for a few years, I've got to utterly disagree with you here. The challenge there is to provide a way to make the world challenging and rewarding for both low and high level chars, regardless of whether they powergame or not.
1) If you set the standard gold to a level that will allow a 'normal' player to gain an acceptable (to them) sum after a modest amount of play, powergamers end up with so much money it breaks the game. That's even if you scale down the gold/monster's-lvl ratio and institute caps on how much money a player can put in the 'bank'. After awhile, a powergamer decides he's going to have some 'fun'; usually their fun abuses either game balance or lower-lvl players. Such abuses include giving a buttload of cash to a low-lvl (see my 2nd point, below), and paying a few ppl to harass someone the powergamer doesn't like. (Note that I said 'usually'; some don't, but most ppl that have that fire-in-the-gut nature will turn to this) That ruins the game.
2) High-lvl eq on low-lvl players... what's not to see about the problem it is? Sure, you'll end up gaining lots of levels fast, but in the meantime you've completely decimated other low-lvl players' usual hunting grounds. There may very well be lots of places for low-lvls to hunt, but at a low level, where the average newbie is in danger of death if a non-newbie mosquito glares at 'em, they very likely don't feel like exploring outside what they know is safe... and who can blame them?
3) Powergamers, at high levels, usually become "Prima donna"s. Their ego, now sufficiently pumped up by their level, they now feel they have the right, nay, duty, to oversee things that aren't their business. A few such examples have been helping on quests that the player isn't allowed help on, railing on an admin and trying to start a riot because the admin punished (for good reason) someone the powergamer likes, and of course the ever-popular 'lead creatures over to someone who pissed me off'.
Please note, I'm not saying I disliked powergamers then (or even now); frankly, I enjoy their passion and free-spiritedness. But they
were one of the two things that could screw up the perfectly good game we had :p (the other, of course, being wiz politics :tsktsk:)
Kilana on 25/7/2002 at 22:51
Quote:
Originally posted by Forsythe
2) High-lvl eq on low-lvl players... what's not to see about the problem it is? Sure, you'll end up gaining lots of levels fast, but in the meantime you've completely decimated other low-lvl players' usual hunting grounds. There may very well be lots of places for low-lvls to hunt, but at a low level, where the average newbie is in danger of death if a non-newbie mosquito glares at 'em, they very likely don't feel like exploring outside what they know is safe... and who can blame them?
Have you played eq before... this is definately not true. Yes, you are right that some newbies will stay in their respective newbie areas... halfling newbs will stay in misty thicket, gnome newbies will hunt in steamfont... but these zones have monsters for various lvls. And there is an exp penalty for hunting lower level areas... For example: Steamfont mountains... the gnomish playground, is filled with all sorts of creatures, ranging from low lvl kobalds, rogue clockwork spiders, and rats. But higher up in the foodchain are drakes, skeletons, pumas, etc... which would equal death to a low level, but good for slightly higher lvl players. And even higher up are minotaurs and giant clockworks. Another note about eq is that, if a lvl 20 kills a lvl 4 monster... you get no exp, and the skills you used will go up slower too. EQ maintains proportions... exp and skills go up faster if you attack equal to higher lvl monsters. Also, I have never seen an empty zone. Each zone has a number of npc's in it... if the number goes lower, because an npc dies, then another respawns... You usually don't notice this, because alot of eq hunting is in camps, and those respawn times are fixed. But the roaming creatures that could pop up anywhere in the zone are the ones you don't notice.
High level players have little effect on low level characters, unless it comes to twinking... which is also fairly limited because all extremely powerful items are nodrop(can't be traded or dropped). And many items within the game are lore, meaning a character can only possess one of this item on their character or in the bank at any 1 time.
Btw: I love eqtutorial, :D... With zone explorer, I can check out some areas without having my character run across the continent to see if its worth going too. Even though there are no npc's, items, etc... I can check out the terain at least.
JoJangles on 25/7/2002 at 22:53
Hmm, I don't quite understand your numero dos point... Excuse my ignorance, but how does a character who could kill any newbie mob in West Freeport(a newbie zone in EQ) ruin the experience of a level 2 newbie trying to kill An Orc Pawn_02? Sure it's possible to clear an area(besides repop etc) but I've never seen a high level mess about in low level zones like that to the extent where they would ruin another persons experience(trying out your bards new AE song on a group of rats doesn't count! =)
As for powergamers getting big egos... Yeah, no BS there... He's called Rordin /evil grin
These fellows are quite nuisenses(sp), but thankfully, at least on my server, the end game folks' reputations are actually quite well known among the other end game folks... quite simply, if anyone is an jerk, you 'will' find out about it if you're in the right raiding circles, mostly because people like to spread dirt on a raiding guild... IE: Character X leads Guild Y, but he's a known cheater(which is actually the story I've heard about one of the top guilds on my server... not that I care too much..) If you screw up on the endgame raiding scale, people will talk about it, and you'll be branded by it etc...
This means that up above in the raiding circles, those few guilds who get there have reputations set by their members(mostly their leaders) and if you're in a respectable guild(Like Veeshan's Fury) those in the same circle will recognize that and assume you present a respectable character... That being said, if you were in Clan Firewalker, those knowledgable of Rordin's antics would brand you a git of sorts...(I expect zero of you to know any of this, I'm just giving examples.)
Yes, many high level people are egotistical, but yes, there is a way to avoid this... join a guild with a good reputation... in fact most raiding guilds, beneath their surface, are just out to have a good laugh.
Inline Image:
http://www.clubfu.com/news_pics/20020721quote2.jpgForsythe on 25/7/2002 at 23:48
Kilana: I was speaking strictly from my memories of those old games and trying to give examples that were generic enough that they'd tend to be true today. I've stayed away from EQ for a reason... it's just not the same once you've been an admin on such a game, in ways that are too profound and hard to describe to be intelligible ;)
Kilana & JoJangles: I think I must've been too vague in my point #2... I was speaking of the EQ equivalent of a lvl 1 Morrowind player running around with the equivalent of glass armor and the Spear of White Woe; they can wipe out an entire newbie area in a matter of minutes. As you said, Kilana, the most powerful equipment can't be dropped or traded on EQ... but how about the next-best equipment, the stuff that gives an unfair advantage and that can be dropped? A newbie with such stuff can commit newbie-monster genocide and rack up the exp, but ruining it for other low-level players until repop (assuming the person doesn't hang around for repop).
JoJangles on 26/7/2002 at 00:13
Hmm...
Even in my state of having 59 levels, nearly full ToV quest armor, a 12/18 sword(weee!!) dragon haste, and other such meaningless items anywhere but in EQ, I could not wipe out the newbie farm in WFP... why? Because the respawn time is too fast. Now, I know you don't know what WFP is, nor do you care, but simply, the theories you've stated about twinking aren't neccesarily appropriate for EQ...
People generally are ignorant about twinking, their anger is derived from jealousy(which is experienced by everyone but about 2 or 3 people in EQ... always something better), quite simply, due to the twinks having another high level character or high level friends, they have that glass armor and white spear woeing thingy, this they generally 'earn', but sometimes is given to them, which is respectable in of itself, as who hasn't gotten a gift?(If you haven't you're probably a meany)
As for the more realistic ruining of the newbie game, it's relatively impossible for even the most twinked out guy to kill everything due to level playing an incredible factor in EQ...(certainly a level 1 monk with a sceptre of destruction(which happens to be one of the best velious weapons btw), fungi chest suit, and other stuff is better than another class, it generally means he's on a roller coaster to high leveldom, which means he doesn't have the 'time' to annoy people... generally...
Furthermore, twinking does very little to disrupt the game of newbies... However for the game of higher levels, a twink who never learned how to play his character is shunned due to his gross lack of talent, skill, and knowledge of his class, which is annoying when a level 46 cleric doesn't have CH... grrr.... Erm, yes.
Oh right... about levels 10 to 30, a totally twinked out character has relatively the killing power of 2 or 3 guys wit hthe same stuff, it's no obliteration of anything, nor decimation, just more efficient killing, and who is to say he can't have all he can eat(within reasons..)
(PS, kilana, check your email)
Forsythe on 26/7/2002 at 00:26
*chuckle* Fair enough; I was simply speaking of how powergamers used to be a pest for me back in the 'old days' ;) It's simply a bonus that 2 out of 3 of my points are apparently still valid ;)
Kilana on 26/7/2002 at 00:59
Lvl 46 cleric without complete heal... LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
