Shadowcat on 1/9/2000 at 11:30
Just to add my support to what seems the predominant opinion... runes should not be available unless they have been learned within the game.
My thoughts on the system are that the rune is largely symbolic, a technique to focus the magic; however the magic itself is much harder to learn than merely discovering the shape of the rune.
With this in mind, 'discovering' a rune should always be a process of teaching and learning (whether by another person, or through writings, or whatever), and never just (say) the discovery of a shape etched into a stone wall.
(Note that Underworld did this, but in Underworld the runes were physical objects which were bestowed with power. In Arx the caster does not need to possess such an item, as the shapes are drawn into the air.)
------------------
--
Shadowcat
One of Many
[This message has been edited by Shadowcat (edited September 01, 2000).]
Fafhrd on 1/9/2000 at 21:40
Not gameplay related, but are you going to make your own engine for the game or are you licensing an existing one? If the latter, which engine?
------------------
It is a far, far better thing to keep a firm anchor in nonsense than to set out on the troubled waters of thought.
PraetorJudis on 1/9/2000 at 21:45
They're using an in house engine.
TROIKA on 2/9/2000 at 00:26
Personally, I am replaying UW2 on my 486DX-4 100mhz -yeah it runs WIN98se, Frontpage2k, and all that fun crap.
That is irrelevant, what I would like to see in the rune based magic system is similar to the Underworld2 rune system, but taken several steps forward.
THIS IS A LONG POST:
1...Players should be able to start with a certain number of basic physical runes as done in UW2. There should not be a list of documented runic spells. If a list exists it eliminates the need to explore or complete quests for powerful spells.
2...Someone must teach you runic magic before you can use it. You shouldn't be able to pull and throw the runes for a "level 7" spell and have it work if you never learned it. You should learn from dreams, ghosts, scrolls, or mages -not just by knowing the cheats.
3...Spell mis-casting or backfires should cause some damage to the primary rune (the last in the series required of the spell) and the player. The character should have a level 1 or equivalent "mend rune spell" that mends more and more damage as the player progresses in levels or experience. For example, if you try to cast explosion and it fails then the FLAM or equivalent rune should suffer some backlash as the energy flowing through it failed to be released. I'm waxing a bit Kabbalistic, but you have raw magical energy being channeled through the primary rune and manipulated by the secondary rune(s). When a spell is successfully cast the magical energies flow through the rune, are manipulated by the secondary rune(s) and gestures, and released with the desired results. When a spell failes the energy is prevented from being released from either the primary rune or the body and causes damage to one or both.
.....Assault spells would release more energy than a defensive or assistive spell. The assault spell SHEET LIGHTNING: VAS ORT GRAV VAS increases the energy, ORT designates the form the power takes -magical, and GRAV completes the spell by converting the energy to raw power. GREAT MAGICAL ENERGY = uncontrolled flow of lightning. The GRAV rune is the PRIMARY RUNE, the others are secondary runes. If one fails to release the energy the GRAV rune or the caster or both suffer the damage.
The last rune is always the PRIMARY RUNE that provides the last bit of information necessary to control the magical energies and cause the desired effect.
5...The "mana" system was nice -keep it- the mage can only channel or buffer so much energy before it takes away HitPoints. The Underworld system did not allow this. If you have 5 manapoints left, but cast a 25point spell, then the 20points should come from HP. So long as you have 1 manapoint remaining you should be able to cast, but with damage to your character.
6...UW2 practice of dipping into the rune bag, readying the runes, and clicking it to cast the spell seems more logical than using the mouse in the middle of combat to draw the runes. You will still wave your hands around or even speak the names of the runes, but getting hit will prevent the spell from being cast. Worst case, you are hit during the drawing/speaking of the final runes and might take damage and/or release the spell at some random location. This could get interesting if you casted IRON FLESH, were hit during the SANCT drawing, and cast it on your enemy in the middle of combat.
7...RUNES CAN NEVER BE DESTROYED, however at certain point of damage they can no longer channel mystical energy until they are mended. Players can know the status of their runes by enveloping the runes with an aura. Green fades to yellow to red to black. Black would signify a rune that can no longer channel energy through it and that it needs to be repaired. Characters could find damaged runes or be given damaged runes by NPC or find them on an enemy mages body.
8...I have written 2 dice based Role-play-game systems and included in them magical systems. I recommend catagorizing the spells into: ASSAULT, DEFENSE, and ASSISTIVE spells with levels. I.e. from UW2) ASSAULT: magic arrow (1), deadly seeker (2), rune of flame (2), bleeding (3), lightning (3), fireball (5), smite undead (5), and so on to the most powerful FLAME WIND (8).
9...Let the characters build their proficiency in the Assault or Defensive magic. This will influence the type of magical character they use. Let's face it, they are VIKINGS -they kick ass with any weapon they can find including the sharpest of them all THE DENNY's SPOON, but their use of magic will characterize them on the battlefield.
10...Characters should have the average of their Assault and Defensive magic as the value or proficiency with Assistive magics like heal, create food, open, levitate, telekinesis to list a few of the UW2 spells.
11. I am done, i hope the ARx team reads this.
[This message has been edited by TROIKA (edited September 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by TROIKA (edited September 01, 2000).]
Le Magot d'Oz on 29/9/2000 at 10:06
Magic must be learn anyway : it's not with random gestures or random word that you can cast a fireball or summon a creature ! Otherwise, with all the thing we do, most of us should be very powerfull mage in the real life
Inline Image:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif !
But we could consider that mages may not be a very begginer in magic (unlike the warrior and the thief) and they could use at the beggining few weak runes.
Regarding to the Multiplayer mode : yes you should be able to learn from your friend, but very slowly (otherwise every coop game would begin by 1 or 2 boring hours of 'learning runes', and moreover it's not very realistic -you cannot learn that fast !).
Manboy on 29/9/2000 at 16:46
The idea of controlling the gestures used in spellcasting is a really cool idea, but I think that you'd have to make sure they don't take too long to get off. You've probably thought of this already, but I just thought that I should mention it as I think it's an important game balance issue.
xman on 3/10/2000 at 14:29
By the way, I just want to say that this casting system is not new. I saw EXACTLY the same system in an old DOS game called "Anvil of Dawn".
Well... it's not the system used during the game, but the one used by the mage who teaches your first spells at the beginning of the game.
Anyway, it is a GREAT idea to use this system (even though it's not original).
I just have 1 doubt about it. Can you move while casting a spell? You obviously can't "mouse look" but can you step back to avoid a thrust while casting the spell.
Le Magot d'Oz on 4/10/2000 at 16:26
-> xman : original doesn't mean never seen before ! You do can move while casting a spell, as you can see in of of the video.
-> SneaksieDave : it's not a light gem : you see this not on some screenshots but ONLY on those where you can see your sword : it's indicate the power of your future hit !
Le Magot d'Oz on 6/11/2000 at 17:35
-> TROIKA Btw, I know that you dream about an improve UW2' magic sytem, but spells in Arx will not be based on physical Runes...
1. You may have a partial list ... (without the shape of the rune
Inline Image:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif )
5. I DO agree with your 5th point
6. Yes, magic is a very difficult art
Inline Image:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gifJollyMan on 11/11/2000 at 11:25
Wow, this forum hasn't been used in awhile, but it's 4 am here, and I don't yet want to bother looking for an official Arx forum. I really should go to bed, shouldn't I?
Anyway the one concern I had with the rune magic system. You cast spells with movements of the mouse. While I really like this idea, won't it get repetitious? I mean, let's say you want to cast magic missles like mad. Maybe it takes 5 magic missiles just to down one goblin (give or take). Will you have to constant repeat a zigzag/whatever motion with the mouse over and over? Won't that get old after doing it 300 times in 1 hour? I don't mean to criticize, I really would like to see this implemented. I suppose you might say you'd get better spells at that point so you wouldn't have to cast as many spells to achieve the same effect, but still, you'd be making mouse motions hour after hour. Just brainstorming here, I wonder if it's possible to include something to the effect of spending skill points towards a "fast cast" skill. Perhaps it would work on individual runes or entire spells. The idea would be to spend these skill points in order to achieve the ability to cast the spell (or rune) without always having to do the mouse motions, perhaps at reduced spell effect.
Well, bed time for me! Goodnight, well goodmorning I mean.
Jolly Man
