Hypothesis: No Hamas = No More Problems. For anyone. - by SubJeff
demagogue on 31/5/2010 at 13:27
Ditto. But on the one state idea... I'm really sympathetic with the idea given my liberal values, but the problem is neither side *wants* to be combined with the other. It's hard to justify one state when practically everybody is against it and it's undemocratic at its root... Even agreeing that it fits better with what modern liberal, democratic, secular societies are supposed to be, even Gandhi finally capitulated that India and Pakistan needed to be partitioned into two states when the vast majority on both sides was against sharing statehood. Whatever plan you have needs to be something that's going to work in the real world.
Gryzemuis on 31/5/2010 at 13:39
You think I am talking BS because you are looking through colored glasses. The media are not objective on this issue. Especially in the US and in Europe. The Jewish lobby has a big influence.
And the other reason is because you take history into the picture. What happened in WWII. The struggle of the early state of Israel. How Arabs have attacked Israel in the past. But all of that is irrelevant if you are living in Israel or Palestine today. There is a problem today. It should be fixed today. People should have peace and prosperity today. People should have equal rights and opportunities today. And they don't. Because of the aggressive racist unfair politics of Israel. I don't give a fuck about what happened before yesterday.
Gryzemuis on 31/5/2010 at 13:45
Quote Posted by demagogue
the problem is neither side *wants* to be combined with the other.
It is not neither side.
It is "certain parties within neither side".
And those parties are the nationalistic, religious, racist people on both sides. The average Israeli or Palestinian might be happy with a one-state solution. But the political, religious and economical elites on both sides will not be happy. Because they will lose their positions of power.
Yeah, maybe some religious leaders inside Hamas would qualify for me wanting to remove them from power. A bit like Subjective Effect has suggested. But then we should also remove the power of the Israeli religious leaders. And other Israeli racist, zionistic, fascist leaders. I think that would have a much bigger impact than only removing Hamas from the picture.
SubJeff on 31/5/2010 at 13:59
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
I don't give a fuck about what happened before yesterday.
Which is why you're an idiot. If you don't want to learn from the lessons of those who came before you you might as well go live in a cave.
I'm sure the Jewish lobby in many countries makes a difference, but your bit about Israel being like the Nazis is the same old tired nonsense which doesn't stand up to any logical analysis. Don't try though, please, it'll be embarrassing.
Melan on 31/5/2010 at 14:07
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
It is not neither side.
It is "certain parties within neither side".
If the world worked like that, the current conflict would never have emerged to start with.
That said, while Israel has a lot of reasons not to pay much heed to the wishes of Hamas, it has done a lot lately to alienate Turkey, who had been their stable ally in the region since forever. That, more than this spat, will have disadvantageous long-term effects. You can only say "fuck everyone" for a while before others take their ball and go home.
Jokerman on 31/5/2010 at 14:09
The problem with the one big happy nation idea is that it doesn't work.
I don't think that the average Israeli, who is not necessarily religious or ultra-nationalist, wants to replicate Lebanon.
Gryzemuis on 31/5/2010 at 14:17
Quote Posted by Malleus
Food for thought: Israel is a democracy.
Food for thought. Democracy doesn't have much impact.
Israel has had many different goverments. There have been some small changes in direction. But before anything really changes, the directions are swung back to the main path. There are forces much stronger than the votes of the people.
In my country over the last few decades we've had center-left and center-right governments. We even had a government without the center party. It doesn't make much difference. Some stuff changes 1% to the left, other stuff changes 1% to the right. But everything else stays the same. We keep minimizing spending on healthcare, the old and needy. And we keep throwing money towards banks and big companies. Taxes keep increasing for the working class, while creating big tax havens for large and international companies. Nothing is changing here.
Look at the US. You have a new government for 17 months now. Did anything change ? You're still in 2 useless wars. With no end in sight. You still let banks and financial institutions rob the people blind. You are still ignoring big disasters. You're still ignoring the environment. You still let big corporations do whatever the fuck they like. Why don't you all fight a bit more whether Obama is American or not. And watch some more American Idols while you all get robbed.
It's the same everywhere. There is a reason for that. Politics is about maintaining status quo. Nobody is interested in change. Change is bad. You can use the media to make sure nobody is aware. The whole western world is literally "Brave New World" and "1984". Democracy is irrelevant.
SubJeff on 31/5/2010 at 14:19
Oh, have some Soma and chill out.
hopper on 31/5/2010 at 14:26
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
I don't give a fuck about what happened before yesterday.
What about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan, then? In fact, "what happened before yesterday" is one of the strongest motivations for the Palestinians
not to declare statehood (yet): They want the right to return to the places within present-day Israel that they were forced to leave, at gunpoint, by the Israeli army. They refuse to surrender their claims to lands that they think rightfully belongs to them, and declaring statehood now would de facto mean just that.
