Jokerman on 2/6/2010 at 14:54

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Yep, you should not believe your lying eyes

Matthew on 2/6/2010 at 15:49

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Hold on, 'why these ships were allowed to leave'? Most nations don't take it upon themselves to stop merchant vessels leaving port, you know.

Edit: also, that's the first time I've ever heard kevlar or NVGs mentioned at all, even by the Israelis.

SubJeff on 2/6/2010 at 16:34

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Some of us go to work you know!

But although Fraggers and I may agree on some things this whole "Turkish orchestration" isn't my bag.


Shall I put it another way then? The plan to run the blockade was primarily to highlight the plight of Gazans to the world, again, because they new there would be some political fallout. They may not have expected that people would die but they were prepared for it and we know this not from the Israelis or any other biased source, but because they announced this before they left port to independent, nay sympathetic media outlets.

DDL on 2/6/2010 at 17:06

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So we're at least agreed that the gazans are, in fact, in a plight worthy of attention? And that this plight is because they're surrounded by angry israelis who totally control what they have access to?

Don't get me wrong, Hamas pulls some serious dickmoves, but this is like watching a small child being locked in a bare room, denied food or clothing and being subjected to baseball bat hits by a big angry man, and then criticizing the child for hitting below the belt whenever he gets the opportunity.

Rug Burn Junky on 2/6/2010 at 17:15

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Oh fuck off, are you really that retarded? Just because there are other poor deluded souls - SOME OF WHOM ARE CAPABLE OF ADDING SUBTITLES TO VIDEOS OHMIGOSH - doesn't give any more credence to your delusions. Just because some idiot with a commodore 64 can slap some words over grainy footage doesn't make his dubious interpretive skills any more credible, and you should fucking slap yourself for even thinking that this is a citation worth mentioning. Even if I gave you the full benefit of the doubt - a stretch given your meager cognitive capabilities - and took all of the claims made in that video as true, it STILL doesn't justify Israel's actions blamelessly. That's with all of the assumptions favorable to you. But back here in reality, where that video is obviously the product of the fever dreams of an apologist desperate not to admit that it's more complicated than his lego-constructed view of the world, the case is much murkier, and that makes your attempt to paint me as biased even more of a fuckin' joke.

The simple fact is that one could theoretically make the argument with a straight face that israel is justified in acting so unapologetically aggressive: "Yeah, we're assholes, and we know we're wrong, but we don't care and we're not going to take it any more."

BUt that's not what I'm hearing, either here or elsewhere. There's a sense of victimhood that pervades all of the justifications. As though Israel not only had a right to do it (questionable, at best) but had no other choice, and deserve sympathy for being mistreated here.... I mean, what the fuck?

No. No they don't.

They were unquestionably aggressive, to ignore that is a delusion bordering on the pathological. There were plenty of opportunities to make decisions that would not have put them in the position of having to defend their actions.

To claim that it is a PR stunt ignores the fact that they had a choice not to enact a questionable blockade in the first place. If they don't, this situation never happens.

To claim that it is a PR stunt ignores the fact that they chose to enforce the blockade with military tactics destined to devolve into violence. If they don't, this situation never happens.

The Israelis had choices, they took them. They can't blame others for their own aggressive, wrongheaded decisions and actions. Nobody put them in this situation but themselves. It's not as though Hamas maneuvered them into actions that they simply couldn't avoid due to amazing genius, chess-like moves and jedi mind tricks. Israel played a giant game of chicken, daring Hamas and their sympathizers to run the blockade, and when someone actually DOES, it's beyond disingenuous to claim innocence and act shocked - shocked I tell you - that anyone would dare do such a thing.

Trying to divest Israel of any responsibility for their actions ignores reality. There is blame a plenty on both sides for both the micro and macro situation, and plenty of that shit deservedly flows back on Bibi and the current hawklike israeli government, which is simply itching for a fight, consequences be damned.

This is not bias, nor is it ignorance. I'm fully aware of the less than innocent motives and actions of Hamas, but where you display ignorance is thinking that that somehow absolves Israel of responsibility when they have so clearly fucked up. Unless you can acknowledge this simple reality, you are quite frankly the plainly ignorant one here.

You can choose to confront facts and challenge your own opinions, or you can retreat to that self defense mechanism of claiming that only bias drives those who are calling you a fucktard (and yes, I am indeed calling you a fucktard). You've obviously chosen the latter. It is ironic that you attempt to defend your own bias and ignorance through accusations of the same, but not surprising.

So in short: shut the fuck up, your special ed version of link-to-youtube-debate is embarrassing, and you're not doing anything but displaying your own giant blind spot.

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And to Brian the Dog (and others), while I'm flattered that everyone cites to me as the expert on all things legal, give demagogue some love. When it comes to areas of international law, he's the man and can no doubt run laps around me. He's not a self promoter, but he knows his shit and I defer to him completely. If you want to finance a multi billion dollar cross border power plant through a debt/equity hybrid, I can help. Anything else that's international is his bag and we should all listen raptly when he speaks.