Huge beef recall due to abuse

Scots Taffer on 20/2/2008 at 10:24

If you find House witty then yeah, I guess I see how you could think that.

Rug Burn Junky on 20/2/2008 at 11:52

Quote Posted by the_grip

i know you relish being an asshole, but please – if you are going to quote what i said, at least quote it in response to me. Does my handle read ChickenMcOwnage or Mr. K.? Didn’t think so.

Christ, now you're fucking retarded. THAT was the point of what I was saying, and it framed everything. NOT that one is wrong for eating vegetarian, but that YOU were incorrect for acting as though it's somehow superior. So therefore requoting you is entirely appropriate. Fucking follow along, it's not that hard.

But yeah, I don't give a shit if someone is smug and condescending. It's just that I find it laughable when they combine that with also being "incorrect" which is the only reason I've said anything.

Quote:

p.s. i’ve been lifting weights regularly since I was 13-14 years old, and I swear every gym across America has its fair share of resident “semi pro” body builders. They were even around in my high school weight room, and they like nothing more than to poke their tits in the mirror and say, “Nur nur nur… look at me hottie… nur nur nur,” as some gym floozie walks by… a constant source of entertainment.

And these two are a lawyer with his own firm and a dentist, both of whom are extremely intelligent, and don't fit the meathead stereotype in the slightest. You may hang out with lowlife who act like that, but I have a higher class of friends myself.

But no, I don't read bodybuilding magazines to learn how to eat, I read things by actual licensed physicians and doctors who happen to be bodybuilders themselves. And I've put my money where my mouth is, because the fact is, I've got nothing but results.

And for all the "research" you may have done, it doesn't change the fact that A) you made a horribly misguided comment, and B) I pointed out why you were wrong, and C) you've just done nothing but whine about it, rather than contradict anything I've said (not that I really give a shit, since you've never proven yourself to be bright enough to contradict me anyway). So really, run along, there ain't anything else to be said.

the_grip on 20/2/2008 at 14:51

Just to be clear:

Quote Posted by fett

How do I get beef that's not been abused, injected, color-dyed, medicated, or otherwise fucked around with?

My answer?

Quote Posted by the_grip

Vegetarian FTW. Meat problems (plus a ton of other stuff) fixed.

What is the "other stuff" that i refer to, at least in the context of that post?

1. The OP, that is, animal cruelty
2. The OP, that is, food that's been "fucked around with"
3. The OP, that is, diseased meat
4. The myth of free range chicken

That was the context of my "smug" and "condescending" post which had nothing to do with a balanced diet (a point you brought up) and everything to do with the ethical and health questions in the OP.

You're right, it's not that hard to fucking follow along when you try.

However, before you start loading up the adjectives, please show me where i berated anyone for eating a meat diet. All i initially did was raise ethical points that anyone who eats a veg diet for moral reasons would raise in this context. Some folks disagreed, but did i go off and call them retarded and ignorant?

And sure, i could add to the list above, but i was sticking with the OP.

ChickenMcOwnage and Mr. K. responded to this:

Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky

Oh nothing major, just a general trend towards deficiencies in essential amino acids, calcium, vitamin B12, riboflavin and iron, among other things.

As well as the elevated estrogen levels that come from consuming too much soy.

I've known plenty of vegetarians. They all look like weaklings, and the best any of them tend toward as body shapes go is "skinny-fat."

But, carry on deluding yourself that it's healthier to avoid meat altogether, which I'm sure you will. Zealots don't tend to listen to reason anyway.

To which they mentioned that you are describing shitty diets, not vegetarianism (just as i concluded). To which was added: you mix your veg to eat healthy... which is the case in a meat or veg diet.

What was your response? That someone needs a team of nutritionists to accomplish this. You then start dragging my ass back into this by including my previous comments which, in their context, had nothing to do with a healthy balanced diet and everything to do with the OP.

In other words, don't start grasping at my points to address what other folks say.

Futher, if anything, i have not acted as if a vegetarian diet was superior. i simply pointed out how you can avoid some ethical and health dilemnas through a veg diet, that research i have read supports veg diets as being a very strong healthy alternative to the norm, and that doctors and nutritionists i have spoken with, outside of one, have recommended it as well.

To the contrary, what YOU said was this:

Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky

Fact is, a diet with healthy, lean animal proteins like poultry and fish is going to be superior to a vegetarian diet any day

Whose the one claiming superior diets here?

Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky

And for all the "research" you may have done, it doesn't change the fact that A) you made a horribly misguided comment, and B) I pointed out why you were wrong, and C) you've just done nothing but whine about it, rather than contradict anything I've said (not that I really give a shit, since you've never proven yourself to be bright enough to contradict me anyway). So really, run along, there ain't anything else to be said.

Nice try to dodge the issue here, but no. The only fact proven here is that you have yet again fallen back on your normal skills of communication (or lack thereof)... in other words, you start puffing your chest out about how much you just "know", you dismiss the points made against what you say (i.e. us veggies need a team of nutritionists to accomplish a healthy diet, come on for fuck's sake), and then you dub ignorance and retardation on the folks who disagree with you.

This is exactly why i opted out early on saying that i didn't want to get into a veg fight - mainly because i *almost* don't give a shit what YOU think because i know your modus operandi in debates. i say *almost* because you pulled my ass right back into this, and now i'm done. Fire away.

Rug Burn Junky on 20/2/2008 at 15:40

Quote Posted by the_grip

To which they mentioned that you are describing shitty diets, not vegetarianism (just as i concluded).

No, what I was saying is that vegetarianism is *more likely to be a shitty diet*, because you're starting at a disadvantage by ruling out healthy sources of protein and nutrients. It's really not fucking complicated, I've already explained why. It's pretty impossible to deny since what I'm describing is "go ahead and eat every vegetarian thing you want plus other healthy animal based sources of protein." If you want to sit there and say that there is no such thing as healthy animal based proteins, well, sorry, but that's fucking ignorant.

Quote:

What was your response? That someone needs a team of nutritionists to accomplish this.

That's a fucking bullshit strawman. What I was saying is that high end athletes are irrelevant to the conversation and don't apply because they have advantages to overcome the inherent shitty nature of most vegetarian diets.

Quote:

You then start dragging my ass back into this by including my previous comments which, in their context, had nothing to do with a healthy balanced diet and everything to do with the OP. In other words, don't start grasping at my points to address what other folks say.

When your shitty point was the only thing I was trying to address in the first place, it's entirely appropriate for me to remind others of this fact by bringing it up again when they start getting sidetracked and misunderstanding shit.

Quote:

This is exactly why i opted out early on saying that i didn't want to get into a veg fight - mainly because i *almost* don't give a shit what YOU think because i know your modus operandi in debates. i say *almost* because you pulled my ass right back into this, and now i'm done. Fire away.

wah, wah, fucking wah.

Say what you want about my "modus operandi" but it doesn't change the simple fact that I'm correct, and your whining about it doesn't help you.

d0om on 20/2/2008 at 15:52

Obviously a vegetarian diet is superior to your average diet eaten by most westerners, as we have a huge obesity epidemic (which is much less pronounced among vegetarians.)

However, an optimal diet will be different, lying somewhat close to vegetarian but including some meat and fish. Even if the perfect diet involves eating one fish a month, its still not vegetarian.
(as to what the perfect diet is, that would require vast amounts of research)

the_grip on 20/2/2008 at 16:09

Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky

If you want to sit there and say that there is no such thing as healthy animal based proteins, well, sorry, but that's fucking ignorant.

If you want to talk strawman argument, how about this: i never even once indicated that there is no such thing as healthy animal based proteins.

Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky

Even if you are only referring to athletes - it's still a fucking silly point. Do you think ChickenMcOwnage or Mr.K. were claiming to be world class athletes?

Even if you are only referring to athletes - one can accomplish a healthy vegetarian diet while being involved in a rigorous athletic schedule without a team of nutritionists. You know how i know? Because i know folks that do just that... including myself. This all in spite of you trying to prove that very fit people i know are somehow high in body fat or unhealthy. And you know these people how?

You say i'm denying animal proteins - which, btw, i have not - how about you claiming you somehow have the goods on all the knowledge of healthy diets for athletes? Oh but wait... you know better because you lost some weight and put on some muscle and read some books to get there. Kudos, but it is fucking incredibly small-minded to think that your experience and research encompasses the issue of what comprises a good diet for exercise and that any contrary opinion is of lower quality at best or ignorant at worst.

Oh wait, i need a team of nutritionists to be able to respond to your not-stinky-shit exercise diet monopoly, huh?

Quote:

The only shit that is misunderstood here is why my point on the ethical treatment of food and health problems inherent in the food industry applies to their comments on athletic vegetarians/vegans and on the nutritional value of a balanced vegetarian diet. You are connecting apples and oranges here, but nice try.

And, just so it is plain as day for you: i have basically made two points in this thread:

1. A vegetarian diet avoids issues in the OP by default
2. A vegetarian diet can be as healthy as a meat based diet - even for athletes

What i have not said is this:

1. There is no such thing as healthy animal protein
2. There is no such thing as a healthy meat eating diet

"Healthy diet" or "complete diet" is such a broad topic and is more of a spectrum than a particular point to reach that trying to over-trivialize it is inherently foolish.

Stitch on 20/2/2008 at 16:56

Quote Posted by Scots Taffer

While I agree generally with Stitch that the standard of communication must be raised (by notifying that person in public or in private) if the membership is having difficulty understanding someone, the manner in which one does it can be telling about the community, in general. As has been the case for much too long in CommChat, and perhaps TTLG as a whole, we are becoming pretty vitriolic.

Agreed. The only thing that really made me see red regarding Gillie was her post deletion, which is something you just don't do. While I basically line up with fett and find the delicate flower brigade outrage ridiculous, I will concede that underneath it all they do have a point.

Also: while the_grip has been an utter wanker in this thread (see his reply above to fett for starters), I would like to go on record and say that this is one of those times when I really wish RBJ would lighten the fuck up.

Fingernail on 20/2/2008 at 16:59

But he knows more about this than you or any of us ever fucking will, and he's SEEN REAL FUCKING RESULTS. :mad:

SubJeff on 20/2/2008 at 17:01

What you've opted to forget, the_grip, is how you initially started off suggesting that vegitarian diets are superior. Vegitarian diets can be just as healthy as non-veggie but achieving a good balance is harder. This is a fact. It doesn't matter which you opt for - if you don't pay attention to what you are eating you can end being an unhealthy eater.

There is a section of the vegitarian population that is chronically undernourished because of this. You, and SD with his big sexy thighs, may not belong to this group but when it's large enough that doctors recognise it in otherwise fit people you've got to think that it's an issue.

LeatherMan on 20/2/2008 at 17:05

Quote Posted by d0om

Obviously a vegetarian diet is superior to your average diet eaten by most westerners, as we have a huge obesity epidemic (which is much less pronounced among vegetarians.)

That is a misleading statement. The obesity epidemic isn't related to eating meat and in fact, it is related to eating an excess of certain vegetables.

The hamburger/chicken/roast beef sandwich isn't what's bad for the body, it's the side of potato chips or fries that is served with it. Fried meat isn't bad either, it's the breading (flour/corn meal) that makes them bad. Also, fried meats are often served with biscuits, corn muffins, gravy, or pasta. Add to that the sodas with their high-fructose corn syrup and you're on a fast path to obesity.

In short, it's the carbohydrates served with the meats that are the root cause of our obesity epidemic, not the meat itself.

Why don't vegetarians have the same problems? Well a salad isn't usually served with a side of potato chips or fries, and most vegetables aren't served on bread or breaded and fried. Even if they wash their meals down with a soda they still haven't overloaded their system with carbs.

Quote:

However, an optimal diet will be different, lying somewhat close to vegetarian but including some meat and fish.

I firmly believe a healthy diet could also be mostly meat. The important thing is to avoid an excess of carbs.