operativex on 11/7/2013 at 17:34
Quote Posted by Starker
A big part of the Thief experience was that you were the intruder and you didn't know what you were getting into. Vague and inaccurate maps can be a big help for creating the feeling that you are in a hostile territory and that something could go wrong at any moment.
Then what about having a "fog-of-war" style map where the initial breaking-and-entering would feel 100% intimidating and hostile. However, once you fully explored the environment, doing the objectives (go to X room, activate X switch or steal X item from X room, etc) wouldn't feel so frustrating.
I don't think it would be totally out-of-place to think a Master Thief could begin to map out the environment in his head whenever he entered a new room.
legoman on 14/7/2013 at 17:01
My thoughts for improving thief. I would include at least one level in which ghosting is the easiest path. To create such a level one needs an enemy which is completely immune to your weapons and from which you are unlikely to escape if detected.
The dark project went some way towards this by introducing a variety of different enemies with unknown weaknesses. However once these were learnt this became redundant. In thief 2 this was even worse, in the very same level the builders children are first seen there is a readable telling you how to disable them. Deadly shadows actually came the closest to this with the statues but then took a nosedive with the moronic blackjack upgrade. Some excellent fan missions have employed this mechanic to great effect albeit in them Garrett is still the fastest thing on two legs so escape is still an option. Obviously such a mechanic is not going for the whole game but i believe would be perfect for the a horror level. And we all want one of those!
In short, I want the cradle with indestructible, lightning fast puppets!
nickie on 14/7/2013 at 17:55
I intensely dislike forced ghosting and I'm not particularly keen on ghosting full-stop. Bashing men on the back of the head is one of my favourite occupations. But if I want to ghost I will and if I don't, I won't. I'd be unhappy to have the choice taken away from me.
You say 'ghosting is the easiest path' but the description of your 'enemy' makes it sound as if it's the only viable path. Have I misunderstood?
legoman on 14/7/2013 at 18:29
You haven't misunderstood, I say easiest so as not to rule out the possibility of other more imaginative ways of dispatching enemies which could arise given some interesting game mechanics. Locking enemies in rooms for example.
In the previous games to date, ghosting has been included through the use of insta fail objectives. Framed, casing and the keeper library. In a later level in thief 4, I would like to ghosting arise as the natural choice given the nature of enemies, rather than as a playstyle enforced by the narrative. I realise this is not to everybody's taste which is I why I stress this should only be included in a single, near end levels where difficulty should increas anyway. Such a level would certainly take action orientated players out of their comfort zone, something EM has stated they intend to do to stealth based players with compulsory fire fleeing!
nickie on 14/7/2013 at 18:44
Quote:
. . . take action orientated players out of their comfort zone . . .
I can see the bewilderment already. :)
I'm not sure yet whether EM has imagination. I was under the impression that most imaginative 'solutions' in previous games were discovered accidentally, i.e. they weren't designed into the games? Anyone want to confirm/deny?
legoman on 14/7/2013 at 18:58
I agree they were accidental, if they were designed I don't think they could be called emergent :)
Dia on 14/7/2013 at 19:31
Quote Posted by legoman
Such a level would certainly take action orientated players out of their comfort zone, something EM has stated they intend to do to stealth based players with compulsory fire fleeing!
I don't view such forced implementations as taking me out of my comfort zone as much as having the devs ideas of how I should play the game forced on me. So far, things you've stated you'd like to see in T4 are things I would abhor - different strokes & all that. And I would positively
detest being forced into 'compulsory fire fleeing', but then again, EM isn't making T4 for me but for the mass gaming audience out there. Not a question of 'comfort zones' as much as preferences. But hey, whatever sells, right?
At this point, my advice on how to improve NuThief would be for EM to either see how many of LGS' original TDP team they can hire to replace their current T4 devs, or just find the original T4 dev team they fired a few years ago and rehire them after firing the ones currently in their employ. Unfortunately, I don't know that even LGS' original TDP dev team could save the game at this point.
legoman on 14/7/2013 at 19:38
Quote Posted by Dia
I don't view such forced implementations as taking me out of my comfort zone as much as having the devs ideas of how I shouldwhereashe game forced on me. So far, things you've stated you'd like to see in T4 are things I would abhor - different strokes & all that. And I would positively
detest being forced into 'compulsory fire fleeing', but then again, EM isn't making T4 for me but for the mass gaming audience out there. Not a question of 'comfort zones' as much as preferences. But hey, whatever sells, right?
At this point, my advice on how to improve NuThief would be for EM to either see how many of LGS' original TDP team they can hire to replace their current T4 devs, or just find the original T4 dev team they fired a few years ago and rehire them after firing the ones currently in their employ. Unfortunately, I don't know that even LGS' original TDP dev team could save the game at this point.
Hi Dia, I'm interested to know how you feel about the forced ghosting in framed and casing? Framed is actually my favourite level from thief 2, wheteas casing leaves a bad taste since I know I have to do it all again in the next level!
We are in agreement regarding the bridge sequence, it sounds appalling. Perhaps it's just spite for wanting a level the cod crowd might not like!
Dia on 14/7/2013 at 19:54
Just like you, I loved Framed, but Casing was also a favorite of mine. It never felt to me as though I was being forced to do anything other than what Garrett would do in those levels (as opposed to the forced parkour sequence in the upcoming T4 - I mean, when did Garrett start freerunning? Oh wait, that's right; we're talking about NuGarrett). There were a few FMs, however, where ghosting was forced throughout the entire mission and I was a little tense because I felt kind of railroaded, but they were good FMs nonetheless. If you're trying to get me to admit to parts of the original games which didn't appeal to me, then I'd have to say the Haunts. Really hated dealing with those nasty buggers. Zombies weren't a fave of mine, either (*gets ready to be teased by old Taffer friends*). Otherwise, imo the original two games are classics and I can only wish EM was doing a sequel, or even prequel, rather than reboot. However, given their intention of appealing to the mass gaming audience out there, I'm afraid the prequel or sequel would turn out to be even more disastrous than the reboot.
It feels too late to start a wish list for T4 imo; been there, done that about 3-4 years ago and no one was listening then, in spite of what EM said. They're creating a game I really don't want to play. If I can have a wish, it would be that they'd just call it something other than Thief and name the main protagonist George or something, anything other than Garrett. It's highly doubtful they're going to listen to a bunch of die-hard Thief fans at this point.
legoman on 14/7/2013 at 20:10
I agree that ghosting makes sense due to the story in those missions. Incidentally, fitting with the story is why I like to ghost Ramirez and also, become a killer when faced with the tricksters minions at the end of tdp. Even so, I do feel the game would have been better if I didnt have so many broadheads at this point, makes it rather easy! Though sniping an
angry frogbeast can be a challenge :)
