Mandragora on 4/6/2022 at 22:56
Charm spell is problematic because it removes agency from protagonist.
If he is 'mind controlled', then his 'alliance with the old enemy' doesn't have as much impact as it would have if he is doing it of his own volition.
Also, if he is 'charmed' (technically manipulated) that needs to be a plot point which needs later resolution.
I think they wanted to use his decision to ally with Victoria to illustrate that Karras is real bad news, so much that Garrett is willing to ignore the fact that Victoria pulled his eye out.
Somewhere along the way the line got a little blurry, so they drifted between 'strange alliance' and 'hint of romance', leaving the points vague?
Maybe they had a plan to grow him as a character on his 'morality arc'? For me, killing Lotus was out of character. But it has function if you think about potential 'morality arc'.
Only problem is, there is no explicit 'in story' trigger for that change.
Then the deadline appeared on horizon, and could be they went full pragmatic on it; 'Is it good enough?' ?It's good enough!' 'Ship it!'
The Shroud on 4/6/2022 at 23:38
Yeah, could be. I'm not sure how much push-back Terri Brosius would have gotten on the screenplay from the project lead and lead designer, especially considering how much more focus was put into the missions themselves than the actual plot (with Terri herself splitting her tasks between mission design and the script). I would imagine she was allowed a lot of creative liberty in that regard, and that no one was really too critical of her decisions — most being far too preoccupied with engine programming and mission design. But all we can do is guess, really. Whatever the reasons were, it's definitely one of those glaring issues with the game.
Another thing that really bothered me, and continues to bother me about TMA's overall plot and mission structure is how much of a waste of time the bulk of Eavesdropping, and literally all of First City Bank and Trust and Blackmail ends up being in the story. Casing the Joint and Masks were way too redundant as well. Hell, the one actual important part of Eavesdropping (the...actual eavesdropping part) could have just been added to the post-Ambush cutscene, then Trace the Courier's briefing could have included the news of Truart's murder, and the plot would have been three missions tighter right there. Quality over quantity, I say.
Mandragora on 5/6/2022 at 02:18
If i must summarize the problem of T2 in comparison with T1 (which has excellent story), i think at the core of the problem is old storyteller's rule that says that events need to be connected with 'because of that' and not just with 'and then..'
T1 is connected mostly with 'because'. Garrett goes to Bafford, and because of that he needs Cutty.. and because of that he goes to Cragscleft.. and because of that he goes to Bonehoard.. and so on.. Events are connected and event A causes event B, and chain goes almost all the way to the end.
T2 is more like - Garrett helps Basso, 'and then' he goes to warehouses, 'and then' he goes to blackmail, 'and then' he is ambushed.. There are maybe few 'because' in there, but i think that is the reason the story is not so tight. Events exist without much causality.
As they said, missions were first, story was second, and it shows.
downwinder on 5/6/2022 at 02:27
just know in a alt universe looking glass did the games perfect,we just got a bit unlucky with our universe,but on the brite side ,we got fan missions so in a sense any errors in story or level design can be fixed for non profit ofcourse :)
just image how unlucky we could have been with no dewdrop ,omg the thought is unthinkable :(
The Shroud on 5/6/2022 at 10:12
Quote Posted by Mandragora
If i must summarize the problem of T2 in comparison with T1 (which has excellent story), i think at the core of the problem is old storyteller's rule that says that events need to be connected with 'because of that' and not just with 'and then..'
T1 is connected mostly with 'because'. Garrett goes to Bafford, and because of that he needs Cutty.. and because of that he goes to Cragscleft.. and because of that he goes to Bonehoard.. and so on.. Events are connected and event A causes event B, and chain goes almost all the way to the end.
T2 is more like - Garrett helps Basso, 'and then' he goes to warehouses, 'and then' he goes to blackmail, 'and then' he is ambushed.. There are maybe few 'because' in there, but i think that is the reason the story is not so tight. Events exist without much causality.
As they said, missions were first, story was second, and it shows.
That's very true, good observation. The story in TDP feels much more fluid because we're actually
following Garrett's activities contiguously from one job to the next instead of just seeing isolated 'episodes' that have very little to do with one another. Granted, we don't hear any further mention of Basso and his sister after Break from Cragscleft Prison than we hear of Basso and Jenivere after Running Interference, but at least in the former, rescuing Basso was just a side objective on Expert mode, where as in the latter, freeing Jenivere was the entire purpose of the mission — and it's just a throwaway episode that has absolutely
no connection to the plot. Likewise with Shipping... and Receiving, while the mission at least does a fair job of establishing the city's changes over the past year and introducing the Mechanists, the actual
purpose of the mission — redirecting a shipment from Gilver to your fence — is never mentioned again and has literally no bearing on what comes next. And the same happens with Framed, a good mission which reveals more of what's going on in the city and sets up some backstory for Truart and Mosley, but still has no actual attachment to what came before or after it. They're all just a bunch of disjointed fragments stuck together with duct tape and chewing gum.
It would be interesting to explore a total rewrite of TMA's plot in a series of FMs and see how it could be done properly — maybe by following TDP's structure as a model, with 12 missions instead of 15, and the last 3 missions comprising the lead-up to the final showdown (Precious Cargo, Kidnap, and then straight to Sabotage at Soulforge?). Maybe missions 7 and 8 would include Garrett breaking into a couple of the Mechanists' more industrial sites (a factory where the automatons are constructed, a chemical plant where the rust gas is synthesized) and planting explosives or something that destroys those facilities, and/or stealing something that makes further production impossible. Mission 9 (Life of the Party, I guess) could merge the exhibition in Masks with the guided tour in Angelwatch to pack a bit more meat into that segment, before Garrett heads off to Markham's Isle. Just some ideas.
Mandragora on 5/6/2022 at 11:51
Just a small causalities would make it feel more connected and organic, i think.
Also, motivation would be more clear and internal.
My 5 minute rewrite :))
Garrett helps Basso because of some old favor/sister + loot. Emphasize friendship or thief's camaraderie, since it will be needed/used later for motivation.
He finds at Rumford mansion some corrupt document about shipment, or even better, Jenivere being sold to some smugglers as slave.
At warehouses, he finds all sorts of kids and beggars being held imprisoned in one of warehouses.
Man signed on document regarding 'slave trade' is Hagen. Garrett sabotages the 'slave trade'. Jenivere dead? Turned into Servant later?
Because of all that, 'somebody' (Victoria is already watching at this point, if not from beginning; maybe some shadows on windows who leave flowers and moss arrows) wants him to frame Hagen. Also, gold and deleting his own 'crime list' from records, so motivation is personal/internal.
Hagen needs to be Tier 3 bad guy, with a little more volume to him.
Because of Framed he needs to be Ambushed, not some cryptic stuff like 'Sammy sold me out'.
Full Mechanists/City Watch ambush. Needs to feel important in term of plot. Revenge for Hagen or something like that.
Here events pick up the pace.
Ambush and Framed can even swap places.
Anyway, Keepers point to Eavesdropping, which leads to Bank, which leads to Blackmail. All well.
Trace the courier and Trial of Blood = chase; all well.
Here is the main twist. Basso turned Pagan sometimes between T1 and T2, maybe he was Pagan all the time. He killed Truart. Extra motivated by death of his sister/Jenivere.
That can soften up Garrett' logic and wish for revenge on Victoria.
There should be one dialog between Basso, Garrett and Victoria that clears everything up.
Also, before this point we need to have a clear idea that Mechanists are real bad news. Corrupted, ready to kill and annihilate, while wearing the mask of progress.
Later in story Basso goes on mission for Victoria on Markham's, and he is Lotus. That way, Garrett's mercy killing a friend has a high reverberation throughout the story.
After that is all well, with 'bring the villain down' structure going on, and closing remaining story threads up.
Some missions could be tweaked left or right, but structurally, it holds.
And Servants needs to be more fleshed out. I played T2x long time ago, but as i remember, they had Servant production being central to the plot. That is excellent choice.
But.. BUT..!
It is easy to be a general after the battle, so.. i love T2 anyway, with all it's 'flaws' :))
intruder on 7/6/2022 at 07:53
Just to add a little bit to the overall discussion: I think we underestimate the impact of Viktoria's oath on Garrett.
If we assume that the world of Thief is, to a certain extend, based on medieval European societies, then an oath and personal honor meant something back then (at least much more than today).
That's why I've always believed that Viktoria is being sincere in this moment and Garrett would see it likewise.
Mandragora on 7/6/2022 at 09:30
I don't think that people in general have a problem with trustworthiness or sincerity of Victoria's claim (shed needs ally with Garrett's skill),
but with Garrett's willingness to accept it because of their history (eye being taken and that kind of neat stuff).
From his point of view, in that moment, he doesn't need them (Pagans) and, as popular belief goes, he would still hold a grudge for events from T1.
But he is somehow easily turned to say 'ok, let's work together'.
Motivation for that decision is in question.
But maybe you have the point, one he was convinced she will not betray him (again), he was more willing to go with 'enemy of my enemy is my friend'.
Cathedral Haunt on 15/6/2022 at 19:52
I really like your idea that Garrett finds out Karras' plan on his own somehow (like you said, Pagans are not really helpful regarding what he discovers at Angelwatch or in Markham's Isle).
But, regarding the cutscene after Trail of Blood, my interpretation has always been that Viktoria doesn't really give Garrett a choice. Viktoria appears threatening and powerful, and she is the one making the choice. That scene is very similar, at times, to what happened at Constantine's the last time Viktoria got angry. Garrett doesn't even agree properly when Viktoria stabs his arm and seals the 'agreement'.
There was no agreement there, well, technically there was, but there was a high level of coercion by Viktoria, or at least that's how I see it. So I cannot see Garrett walking out of this at all.
But, yes, I never liked the idea of working together with Viktoria when it comes to Angelwatch, for example. Garrett could have easily found --at the end of Trail of Blood- notes regarding Angelwatch and the Cetus project (maybe even notes by Viktoria herself), and decide to check that up on his own. The joining of forces with Viktoria could have come later.
