How crazy is this cartoon issue?

Starrfall on 16/2/2006 at 21:40

OK I'm not judging, I'm just going to mention that the last guy who overdid the "quote a line and reply, quote a line and reply, quote a line and reply" was Nedan (Who is now going to be summoned by the writing of his name and materialize into this thread.) and so the practice might be one to avoid.

Anyways I'd just like to say that it sure is a good thing there aren't any new (old) Abu Ghraib photos starting to make thier way around because that might kick the riots into full frenzy again!

Wait oops.

Tocky on 16/2/2006 at 21:44

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Haha, it's almost like these things would have happened even if we hadn't been fucking over Afghanistan and the Middle East for decades..

Explain this. How has helping Afghanistan drive off a foriegn power been fucking it over? How has giving the middle east money for oil been fucking it over? Because we have given Isreal a chance not to be wiped off the map?

SD on 16/2/2006 at 21:51

Quote Posted by Tocky

Are you really saying that the Taleban were a better option than the Russians? Who do you think gets that Middle East oil money (big hint: most of the Middle East is run by oppressive dictators)? And what makes you think Israel should even be on the map in the first place?

Agent Monkeysee on 16/2/2006 at 22:14

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Israel, Turkey's problem.

Haha, it's almost like these things would have happened even if we hadn't been fucking over Afghanistan and the Middle East for decades.

Those things would only be an issue because we have put ourselves in a position where those things are an issue. Humans survived perfectly well in Britain for thousands of years before we even knew the Middle East existed.

I simply can't respond to your counter-arguments because your analysis is based in nothing but "how Strontium Dog wishes the world works" with a healthy dose of "history shouldn't have any impact on the present". In fact we've had this exact argument before so I'm just gonna drop it. We're not going to find any common ground here and I'm going to continue to think your hopelessly naive and simplistic view of the world is mind-numbingly irrelevant to anything approaching a real-world discussion.

SD on 16/2/2006 at 22:37

Psst. There's nothing naive and simplistic about wanting to have as little to do as possible with a region of the world that has brought us nothing but trouble since we stumbled upon it.

Your problem Monkeysee is you try and play by their rules, rather than tearing up the rulebook and writing your own. "Oh this affects our interests in X" "Oh this might have repurcussions if Y and Z do this" FUCK THAT SHIT. I couldn't give two flying fucks if Walla Walla Land and Bobbins Island want to join forces to say nasty things about Mongo Bongoville, because I've decided we should stop buying Mongo Bongovian products and produce our own.

I've always believed that we should try and get our own house in order before we start trying to "solve" the world's problems (and isn't it funny how all of our "solutions" for the Middle East end up putting shovelfuls of money into the pockets of rich executives? Let's bomb Iraq! Then pay Dick Cheney to rebuild it! The Iraqi people will love us for it!).

Or if we are going to deal with the Middle East, then we gotta be prepared for it to rear up and bite us in the ass on a regular basis.

Like I say, we don't need to have anything to do with the Middle East. We deal with them because it suits the suits.

SD on 16/2/2006 at 22:47

From earlier:

Quote Posted by Agent Monkeysee

Answer this question. How should we deal with Hamas' elevation into the Palestinian Authority?

Y'know what, this situation just sums it all our Western attitudes up in a nice tidy little bundle. We spend billions trying to impose democracy on the Middle East, and when a Middle Eastern state finally gets round to making a democratic choice, we get all pissy about it and try to take our ball home.

How about we just back the fuck off and respect the decision of the Palestinian people for once? But of course, that's not a Real World Answer, right? What we gotta do is threaten to withdraw all our funding to Palestine, or up our military presence in the region, or otherwise behave in some obscene manner that only serves our Interests In The Region, pisses off the Arabs and basically stirs up a shitload of hornets because we just couldn't deal with their democratic choice.

Our attitude stinks.

Scots Taffer on 16/2/2006 at 23:22

Wow, for such a humanitarian, Stronts doesn't give a shit if Turkey gets all murderous and politically destabilised... Why could that be?

Haha, what was it Monkeysee said about irrelevant history? Right again!

p.s. Ideologically (but in no way practically), I agree completely with what you're saying, StD - however AM does have a point that you're being very naive when it comes to (say) just stopping the purchase of Bongovian products and starting your own, that idea right there is an economic decision that requires insane amount of forethought and expense in undertaking, which doesn't exactly suit our cheap-goods American friends.

SD on 16/2/2006 at 23:26

I don't mind us acting in the region if it's for the best of the people there, but when do we ever?

Which is why every action we take should be done through the United Nations. I don't trust the US/UK axis to act in an altruistic manner.

Scots Taffer on 16/2/2006 at 23:29

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Yeah, and this is PRECISELY what Monkeysee means when he says that it's not really possible to have a real-world discussion with you about these things. You're speaking in ideals and starry-eyed hopefuls, which as a pacifist and a progressively thinking individual I agree with entirely, but it just don't josh in today's world.

Agent Monkeysee on 17/2/2006 at 00:04

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Your problem Monkeysee is you try and play by their rules, rather than tearing up the rulebook and writing your own.

You and I are working in a chemistry lab. I accidently spill ammonium chloride into bleach.

As the lab slowly fills with deadly chlorine gas I say "oh man this is terrible we need to get out of here and contain the spread of this corrosive malaise. What should we do?"

Your answer is "well maybe if we hadn't invented bleach in the first place this wouldn't be an issue you big crybaby" and then you sit back smugly content with the knowledge that you're a problem solver unbound by such rules as Boyle's Law, the history of industrial chemistry, your past employment choices, and the need to continue breathing.

I could go on but really I just want to point out the incongruity between your disgust of the West's inhumane actions towards the Arab world and the complete and utter contempt and lack of empathy in your proposals to abandon Israel and Turkey to potential destruction. Apparently we should only give aid and assistance to peoples who aren't openly allied with Western nations. You're a real friend of humanity.

Quote Posted by Strontium Dog

Oh hay here's another problem. You're like Vincent in Pulp Fiction. "Take care of her?" |-- No, take care of her. Take her out. Show her a good time.

I didn't say anything about threats either political or military against Hamas. Stop fighting the fantasy Monkeysee in your head that's calling death to arabs and start responding to my actual posts. Dealing entails whatever. Work with them, work against them, bomb them, or send them aid.

If it counts for anything I think we should try and work with Hamas in good faith and let them step on their own dick if that's what they're going to do. But the reality of the situation is the Palestinians have elected a government that is openly hostile towards Israel and has used terrorist actions in the past. Abandoning Israel is not a real-world solution, which means we have to deal with, as in not ignore, the Palestinian Authority.