Stitch on 16/2/2006 at 17:08
I think BR has more or less shut off his brain by this point and is just posting random fortune cookie slips, so I'll answer your basic question of:
Quote Posted by Agent Monkeysee
I don't see what this analysis, even if true, brings to the table. We can't put the Middle East on hold and check back in 200 years. They may be primitive fanatics, but they're primitive fanatics that affect global politics and economics RIGHT NOW.
What I think we need to do is respect their actions and beliefs when they are reasonable and tactfully draw a line in the sand when they aren't. I recognize this is extremely wishy-washy, but it basically comes down to a perspective shift. I do think there's a certain arrogance the West has that OUR WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY which certainly helps justify the Muslim world's delusions of Western persecution.
Does that get us any closer to an answer?
Not really :(
Rogue Keeper on 16/2/2006 at 17:13
As if you were quoting my mind, Stitch.
Mutual respect between civilizations is No. 1 priority.
I just wanted to be extremely philosophically l33t, you know? :devil:
Agent Monkeysee on 16/2/2006 at 17:50
Quote Posted by BR796164
You know, I don't know if you know that saying:
"Who doesn't do anything, won't botch anything."
Are you actually going to answer my question or keep spouting off idiotic platitudes? I'm not even addressing the issue of "fixing" the region, but the simple fact that we unavoidably must DEAL with the region.
Answer this question. How should we deal with Hamas' elevation into the Palestinian Authority?
Answer this question. How should we deal with the possibility that Iran is developing nuclear weapons and even if they aren't what are the ramifications of Iran entering the international nuclear procurement business?
Answer these questions. If Iraq were to descend into civil war how do we handle the destabilization of the region? How do we deal with the possibility that a destabilized Iraq will become another Al Queda stronghold? What effect will this have on the Palestinians and therefore on Israel? What will Saudi Arabia's reaction be to a radical islamic state right next door and how will that affect Western oil interests? How will an independent Kurdish population, newly invigorated from capturing northern Iraq, affect Turkey and thus Near Eastern and Eastern European politics and relations and its subsequent effects on the EU and the Russian Federation?
Answer these questions. What if North Korea and Iran go into business together? What if India gets punchy? What will China do?
The Middle East can't be hermetically sealed. It's the nexus of all kinds of political and economic entanglements. "Respect their civilization d00d :cool:" doesn't even
mean anything. It doesn't address any real-world issue.
Quote Posted by Stitch
What I think we need to do is respect their actions and beliefs when they are reasonable and tactfully draw a line in the sand when they aren't. I recognize this is extremely wishy-washy, but it basically comes down to a perspective shift. I do think there's a certain arrogance the West has that OUR WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY which certainly helps justify the Muslim world's delusions of Western persecution.
The fact of the matter is we can't always be tactful though. The Middle East is too important. Between oil, Israel, extreme islamic radicalism gone global, the global political and economic ties in the region, and the very real human rights issues we simply can't treat them with a 10-ft. pole.
SD on 16/2/2006 at 19:39
Quote Posted by Agent Monkeysee
we unavoidably must DEAL with the region.
I'm not sure it's that cut-and-dried actually. Why do we
have to deal with the Middle East at all?
Chimpy Chompy on 16/2/2006 at 19:54
Because of all that stuff in monkeysee's post after the bit you quoted.
SD on 16/2/2006 at 20:09
No, I said why do we have to deal with the Middle East - not why do we want to.
Agent Monkeysee on 16/2/2006 at 20:43
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
No, I said why do we
have to deal with the Middle East - not why do we
want to.
Because of all that stuff in my post after the bit you quoted. Or did you just read the lol oil and lol israel parts and skip over the rest.
SD on 16/2/2006 at 21:00
I read it all, though lol israel and lol oil is a pretty good summation of the entire thing.
Okay, maybe you don't agree with me, but it's my personal opinion that at this stage in our history, we really don't need anything from the Middle East. Oil - meh. Israel - meh. Geopolitical^MEH^MEH^MEH interests - meh.
If the political desire was there, then we actually could survive perfectly well without the Middle East. At no point during my day today did I sit up and think "Gosh, if it wasn't for the Middle East, I couldn't be typing on this computer/eating these chips/riding on this bus/drinking this Fanta/ogling this chick".
We don't need the Middle East any more than we need ring doughnuts, radio-controlled cars or I Can't Believe It's Not Butter.
Agent Monkeysee on 16/2/2006 at 21:13
Then you didn't read the whole thing. Or didn't understand it.
Whether we need anything from the Middle East or not is irrelevant to the larger picture. What goes on in the Middle East has spillover effects to the entire world. It's not a matter of need when Iran and North Korea start working together to proliferate nuclear technology to rogue states. It's not a matter of need when Iraqi tribalism destabilizes Turkey. It's not a matter of need when the Palestinian Authority and Israel begin stepping up hostilities toward each other. It's not a matter of need when China decides to boost Iran as a foil against Western favoritism in Saudi Arabia and India. And it's certainly not a matter of need when Saudi Arabia continues to provide funds and materiel for Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and a newly chaotic Iraq and the next jet airliner flies into the Parliament building.
The Western world could cut all diplomatic, economic, and military ties tomorrow and everything I listed would still be an issue and still affect us to the extent that we would need to react to them. In fact if the Western world were to cut all diplomatic, economic, and military ties the place would erupt into chaos, Israel would most likely implement aggressive military action, and it's entirely possible we would have a nuclear war.
Oh but you know lol oil.
SD on 16/2/2006 at 21:29
Quote Posted by Agent Monkyesee
It's not a matter of
need when Iran and North Korea start working together to proliferate nuclear technology to rogue states.
This really happen :confused:
Quote:
It's not a matter of
need when Iraqi tribalism destabilizes Turkey.
Turkey's problem.
Quote:
It's not a matter of
need when the Palestinian Authority and Israel begin stepping up hostilities toward each other.
Israel's problem.
Quote:
It's not a matter of
need when China decides to boost Iran as a foil against Western favoritism in Saudi Arabia and India.
Please expand.
Quote:
And it's certainly not a matter of
need when Saudi Arabia continues to provide funds and materiel for Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and a newly chaotic Iraq and the next jet airliner flies into the Parliament building.
Haha, it's almost like these things would have happened even if we hadn't been fucking over Afghanistan and the Middle East for decades.
Quote:
The Western world could cut all diplomatic, economic, and military ties tomorrow and everything I listed would still be an issue and still affect us to the extent that we would need to react to them.
Those things would only be an issue because we have put ourselves in a position where those things are an issue. Humans survived perfectly well in Britain for thousands of years before we even knew the Middle East existed.
Quote:
In fact if the Western world were to cut all diplomatic, economic, and military ties the place would erupt into chaos, Israel would most likely implement aggressive military action, and it's entirely possible we would have a nuclear war.
Israel's problem. Again.
Quote:
Oh but you know lol oil.
It's what it boils down to and you know it. Well, oil and weapons. And the Jewish vote. And all that other stuff related to money and power and not actually improving the lives of anyone anywhere except a very rich few.
