Stitch on 14/2/2006 at 21:12
Quote Posted by BR796164
blah blah "superior" blah blah "animals" blah blah Civilizationally superior violence
At no point did I imply the rioters are animals or we are superior in any way. But it's clear that the Muslim world is more fanatic and that's something they are going to have to work through on their own terms. All that we can do is respect their rules and provide what assistance we can in the navigation of this path, which is a completely different path than the one the Christian world is currently on. Similar goals, two completely different faiths and cultures.
Bringing up past failures of the Western world is utterly irrelevant, nobody is claiming that we had this shit locked up years ago, or that we're even close. This is a continual process, and hopefully we're learning from our mistakes.
TheGreatGodPan on 14/2/2006 at 22:33
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
Personally, I'm more ashamed that newspapers in my country saw fit to publish cartoons whose sole purpose (now) is to offend- and if that wasn't clear to the original publishers it
is clear as mud now. Publishing those cartoons does not in any meaningful way protect 'freedom', of the press or anything else, only the 'right' to be deliberately insulting and offensive.
I think if a person said something horribly offensive, a newspaper could publish what they said without necessarily endorsing them. And a lot of the cartoons weren't really offensive. The one in the desert with the sun in the background, the kid writing "The Jylland-Posten editors are a bunch of reactionary provocateurs), the stick-figure drawn by a guy with "PR Stunt) on his turban, the "Just a Dane from southwest Denmark" one, and so on. I think readers would be better able to judge the degree of offensiveness if they saw them, and the papers should also publish the three fake cartoons (one grainy photo of a french pig-imitation contest, a drawing (likely by someone whose first alphabet is not a latin one) that calls Muhammad a pedophile, and one that shows a dog mounting a person engaged in the Islamic form of prayer) and the circumstances surrounding them.
BR: I heartily commend your commitment to willful ignorance. You show that awful reality who's boss. Just keep on repeating "We're all the same. We're all the same. We're all the same".
Zygoptera on 15/2/2006 at 00:07
Quote Posted by TheGreatGodPan
I think if a person said something horribly offensive, a newspaper could publish what they said without necessarily endorsing them.
You've missed the point. It isn't a question of whether they
can publish- it's a free (or at least a 'free') press- but whether they
should, knowing that they
will grossly offend and inflame.
Malygris on 15/2/2006 at 04:20
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
Logic. Pretty much everyone in New Zealand has access to the internet, either at home or at work or from a library or from a cybercafe- some of these places even have people who can help the computer illiterate! If you wanted to find out what the cartoons look like (pretty much the definition of being interested in them) then you can, for minimal effort.
That seems like a pretty big leap to me. There's a difference between "having internet access" and living in a city or country with internet cafes. And given that this represents a very fundamental clash of values between Western and Muslim societies, I think it's something that's very much of interest to people regardless of their online status.
Now, if you want to say that it's unnecessary to print the cartoons in newspapers because they're readily available online for people who are that interested - and that's apparently your point, which I didn't pick up on with my first reply - that's another matter entirely. I still don't agree, but it makes a lot more sense than implying a lack of interest among those not online.
Rogue Keeper on 15/2/2006 at 09:19
Quote Posted by Stitch
At no point did I imply the rioters are animals or we are superior in any way.
I didn't say you have implied that. I was just developing my theory and reaction to TheGreatGodPan's post, which you have reacted to in the first place.
Otherwise I agree that Muslims are often more fanatic than the Christian world.
Islam will have to grow up. What doesn't mean that WE are fully grown up.
Quote:
hopefully we're learning from our mistakes.
Nope. Human stupidity is eternal and we make the same mistakes over and over again, because we have tendency to be historically forgetful.
Blah Blah Blah
Gingerbread Man on 15/2/2006 at 09:42
I find it interesting -- as far as the fanaticism of Islam goes -- that at roughly the same age Islam is now, Christians were playing games called "Spanish Inquisition" and "Great Schism" with tremendous zeal.
Rogue Keeper on 15/2/2006 at 09:50
That's it. :)
aguywhoplaysthief on 15/2/2006 at 11:52
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
I find it interesting -- as far as the fanaticism of Islam goes -- that at roughly the same age Islam is now, Christians were playing games called "Spanish Inquisition" and "Great Schism" with tremendous zeal.
Well, that's a huge relief. Now we only have to deal with millions of developmentally-disabled, nuclear-armed chaps hanging around for a few hundred years.
And here I thought we were in this shit for the long haul.
Uncia on 15/2/2006 at 12:38
What makes you think the US will be around for a few hundred years?
Hesche on 15/2/2006 at 14:32
I think the major problem here is lack of respect from both sides.
The Occident doesn´t respect the values and opinions of the Orient and the Orient doesn´t respect the values and opinions of the Occident. Nevertheless global economy demands cooperation.
Both communities are dealing with an economically powerful partner, who depends on goods or raw materials of the other in order to prosper.
There are several examples of western disrespect/disapproval for opinions/values of the Orient:
- inferior position of women within the islamic society, absolute dominance of the man
- disavowal of forms of government or legislation (latest example: disavowal of the Hamas as political partner after their election victory)
- denegation of the very right of existance of Israel
- those silly turbans
We have our free democratic basic order that we wish to be respected by others, values like sexual equality, freedom of opinion or religion, equal rights and so on. Those values/opinions are unfortunately (in part) contrary to those of the Orient.
If you find those values mocked by whomsoever, you will start protesting in a way, that you feel is adequate. The more defenseless you feel and the more stirrers are involved, the more desperate and irrational this protest will be.
If it´s so hard to compromise with eath other, we shouldn´t make business with each other.
