Agent Monkeysee on 8/2/2006 at 17:01
Quote Posted by tungsten
Dear Iranian newspaper, can you please explain what you think is similar between the Prophet and the Holocaust? I don't seem to find many connections.:ebil:
They're daring the European papers to print the holocaust denial cartoons like they printed the Mohammed cartoons. This poses a problem, because there are a number of European countries that have hate speech laws prohibiting the publishing of messages of nazism, anti-semitism, or holocaust denial.
Now, I think given the proper context, most papers would be able to print these without being guilty of hate speech propogation. But the point is the European papers printing these cartoons are thumbing their nose and going "we have free speech haha" and Iran is calling them on it by daring them to print content that is, in fact, prohibited in these same countries. Not only is it putting the lie to the "unfettered free speech" position, it's illustrating that other religions have better protection against slanderous depictions than Islam. It's a better zing than you would at first expect.
SD on 8/2/2006 at 17:11
Quote Posted by Agent Monkeysee
it's illustrating that other religions have better protection against slanderous depictions than Islam.
Error. The Holocaust denial laws have nothing to do with protection of religion and everything to do with protection of a much-persecuted race of people. That a majority of this race of people happen to follow a certain religion is neither here nor there. I don't follow Judaism but I would have been killed for having Jewish blood in the Holocaust. Unlucky for Iran, but they're not comparing like with like, and that's why their zing is ass.
BlackErtai on 8/2/2006 at 17:12
That is a very good response from the Iranians. My class on the life of Muhammad discussed this issue on Tuesday, and I had just read the article online discussing the fact that the Iranian newspaper was moving in this direction. The only think I see wrong with this is that it doesn't nessicarily prove anything besides the fact that free speach takes different forms in different places. Depiction of the Prophet is much different than denying that millions of people were basically tortured and killed for no reason. Where Iranians to ask for pictures of Christ with a crusader flag and sword, I'd see a similarity, but the fact that many newspapers in the muslim world frequently post articles and pictured denying the Holocaust or downplaying the evil required to commit it makes the significance of this particular response seem more hollow than it should. As you say, it is a very zingy response because it is interesting they would point out one of the things expressly prohibited in many European countries in an arguement about free speach, but their frequent use of the motif in a different context doesn't so much make it commendable as it does make it look like "You can do that, well we can do this and now you can't say shit...you've talked yourself into a corner."
Damn Saudi's and their scheme to keep people from getting angry about the hundreds killed during the Hajii. If they'd just admitted culpability to protecting the visitors to Mecca, we wouldn't be having this problem now...
MrWynd on 8/2/2006 at 17:12
Print the holocaust denial stuff - there's nothing wrong with seeing an extreme point of view. You can find banned cartoons online for their racist content (wartime) like bugs bunny - should those be allowed to air? Is displaying them on the internet enough free speech?
SD on 8/2/2006 at 17:30
Quote Posted by BlackErtai
As you say, it is a very zingy response because it is interesting they would point out one of the things expressly prohibited in many European countries in an arguement about free speach
There's nothing zingy about asking Europeans to violate racial hatred laws. Iran has picked on one area where free speech is limited - big deal.
TheGreatGodPan on 8/2/2006 at 17:50
Quote Posted by BR796164
What is acceptable and what is not, depends on what society we live in.
So what we have here : making fun of the Pope and Christian icons always causes a big hype in Christian society.
And God forbid someone would be making hard-edged humorous cartoons of Jehovah or Jewish religious icons in western media - since majority of them are owned by Jews, the unfortunate soul would be alleged of racism, nacism, and fueling of religious hatred and I don't know what else...
Causing a big hype is one thing, burning down embassies and threatening terrorist attacks, which even Fred Phelps doesn't do, is another. And I beg to differ on your Judaism-is-out-of-bounds comment. There are a lot of jews in comedy, and in-your-face-comedy at that and a lot of that comedy makes light of their religion and/or people. Mel Brooks' 15 commandments seem like a larger dig at a religion than the cartoons, except for the ones that reference violence on the part of muslims. The real reason you don't see too many cartoons associating jews with violence outside of the middle east is because they're less violent than the bulk of the population.
Hesche on 8/2/2006 at 17:52
Quote Posted by Brother Renault
We have to consider the intellgence level of the people we're dealing with, and at the same time wonder why they aren't getting any form of guidance or leadership from whatever group they come from.
I don´t think that they are necessarily dumb. I have seen well educated men turn into a rioting mindless mob at soccer games. When I think of my lessor I could go berserk too. Given the right circumstances and influences everybody could be part of an angry mob.
Look at the people on this board. Well educated individuals getting all worked up about this crap.
EDIT:
Quote Posted by TheGreatGodPan
The real reason you don't see too many cartoons associating jews with violence outside of the middle east is because they're less violent than the bulk of the population.
Is that so? Sounds like a valorizing prejudice to me.
Agent Monkeysee on 8/2/2006 at 18:05
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Error. The Holocaust denial laws have nothing to do with protection of religion and everything to do with protection of a much-persecuted race of people.
Yeah but that's not how they see it. And ignoring the religious angle altogether it is a zing-a-ding-ding on many European countries' free speech laws and as a response to the entire continent going "we have free speech nyah so suck it" it hits its mark pretty well.
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
There's nothing zingy about asking Europeans to violate racial hatred laws. Iran has picked on one area where free speech is limited - big deal.
Heh, yes it is, for exactly the reason you state in your second sentence.
Look, I'm not defending Iran here. The tragedy of the holocaust-denial contest is these are views held by a majority of Iranians. My point is simply that it's not completely unrelated to the Muhammed issue and buried under the anti-semitic furvor they have the makings of a point with merit.
Myoldnamebroke on 8/2/2006 at 18:52
The difference is one of what the cartoons would be motivating. Europe has plenty of areas where free speech is limited - the calls for the arrest of the protesters with the 'behead those who insult Islam' signs, or Abu Hamza's prosecution for incitement to murder. Calling us on that isn't particularly insightful.
However, none of these cartoons incited violence - at worst, they crudely condemned violent behaviour with an overly-broad brush. I'm not sure how you could draw a Holocaust themed cartoon with a similar content. The correct analogy would be drawing a cartoon of a greedy moneylending Jew or a Catholic molesting children.
Although, I suppose you could just draw a picture of someone saying 'haha! those dastardly jews got what was coming to them'. I'm not sure what legal ground you'd be standing on then. But then again, that's gone beyond ridicule and into being hateful, which the cartoons weren't. The may have been ignorant and offensive, but there has to be a reason beyond being offensive to prohibit something. HAHA STUPID MUSLIMS is different to HAHA STUPID MUSLIMS I WISH SOMEONE WOULD KILL THEM
ANYWAY
Iranian newspapers can print whatever they want, and we can be free to condemn them if we dislike where they draw the boundaries. The difference isn't 'we have freedom of speech and you don't' it's 'we have rule of law so don't react to these things by attacking stuff'
jay pettitt on 8/2/2006 at 19:47
Quote Posted by tungsten
Dear Iranian newspaper, can you please explain what you think is similar between the Prophet and the Holocaust? I don't seem to find many connections.:ebil:
Cartoons.
