Convict on 5/2/2006 at 12:43
While I admit that perhaps I do gloat when I shouldn't, there is no excuse for personal attacks in debate.
Seeker on 5/2/2006 at 13:05
Oh I don't know about that, but they are rather counterproductive.
Quote Posted by Convict
I'm not necessarily sure that this is a bad thing in terms of global politics. I was thinking that if Iran is trying to get support from Europe (and perhaps other Muslim countries) in the long term, then this huge dispute will surely damage any such possible relationships. I think that this is a good thing in terms of retarding Iran (and other similars) from aquiring nuclear weapons etc and maybe this will actually prevent a nuclear war.
What makes you think Iran would be getting support from Europe?
Convict on 5/2/2006 at 13:29
I think that Iran knows that it needs a powerful ally against an (perceived) unfriendly America in the longer term.
SD on 5/2/2006 at 14:19
That didn't answer Seeker's question at all. What makes you think Iran would find this powerful ally (that they supposedly need) in Europe?
Pitch on 5/2/2006 at 15:07
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
To be honest man I think we need exactly that. The "moderate muslim" leaders need to go out and publicly state this is completely nuts, and that they accept the west is not bound by muslim traditions. It might not stop the protestors, as you say, but it would at least reassure the rest of us that "BEHEAD THOSE WHO OFFEND US" isn't what Islam is about.
As much as I agree with you, Chompy, I'm affraid that the moderate muslim leaders are losing their influence in favour of the extremists. First Hamas winning the Palestynian election and now this cartoon-riots stuff. Until now I was convinced that the muslims were in general peaceful and unsupportive to the extremists. But now I'm just confused and don't know what to think. In short:
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
I really don't know what to make of Islam these days. :(
Uncia on 5/2/2006 at 15:27
Well, there's always the 3rd option of "they're pissed at Europe for something else and are using this as an excuse". I read a comment somewhere that Palestinian militants are upset with the EU for threatening to withdraw their funding.
SD on 5/2/2006 at 15:34
Quote Posted by Uncia
I read a comment somewhere that Palestinian militants are upset with the EU for threatening to withdraw their funding.
Oh, well obviously, burning down EU embassies is the perfect way of dealing with such a threat!
Whatever happened to peaceful protest? Does it even exist in the Middle East.
This is all fucking Jesus's fault
Starrfall on 5/2/2006 at 16:00
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
That didn't answer Seeker's question at all. What makes you think Iran would find this powerful ally (that they supposedly need) in Europe?
Because Europe is full of socialists and they'll help
anyone!
I'm kind of interested in seeing what those recently converted Texas Muslims have to say about this. Also what all of the Indonesian Muslims think. I'd guess this is really less of an Islam thing and more of a "Boy do we ever just hate you guys" thing.
Edit: Ok I looked and I've got a march in New Zealand and protests at embassies in Indonesia. So it seems to be relatively low-key so far.
Malygris on 5/2/2006 at 17:05
I'm a bit surprised that we haven't heard by now of some enterprising soul somewhere in the world - down Convict's way, perhaps - making a small fortune selling t-shirts with these cartoons printed on them.
"MY FOLKS INSULTED THE GREAT PROPHET OF ISLAM, MOHAMMED (PEACE BE ON HIM), AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY T-SHIRT"
Paz on 5/2/2006 at 18:35
I'm going to splurge some stuff on the page now, in an attempt to find some kind of coherence. I think it's important to at least attempt to claw together as many of the factors involved as possible ... I'm not sure why, but I'm doing this anyway. Writing such things is helpful for me. Everything will, naturally, be my own point of view.
~ Five months ago, some rather crappy cartoons appeared in a Danish newspaper. There were, by all accounts, 12 of them.
~ Recently, some Danish imams went to have a chat with high-ranking Muslim clerics in the Middle East about the 12 cartoons.
~ Somewhere along the line, these 12 cartoons allegedly became 15 cartoons. The additional 3 cartoons were never published in any European newspapers and featured Muhammed with a pig's snout, Muslim guy having sex with a dog and Muhammed as a .. uh .. daemonic paedophile. This info gained from here - (
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/) (toward the bottom)
That link also seems to confirm that merely producing 'an image of Muhammed' probably isn't going to cause anyone much concern. Or, at least, has not in the past. You have to make him look a bit of a tit before people are upset.
~ Anyway, this is where things KICKED OFF. And this is where information becomes seriously cloudy. Are demonstrators who have been driven to burn embassies motivated by:
(1). Anger at the original cartoons?
(2). Anger at the fake cartoons?
(3). Anger at 'the west'?
(4). Anger at what someone has told them these cartoons depict?
(5). Some kind of mixture of all this.
Where a violent response has occurred (and, we should note, many protests have passed entirely peacefully), it is clearly unnacceptable. I think it's important to get to the root of it, however.
~ So this is what irritates me, then. That, at the heart of this whole mess, are a bunch of people STIRRING SHIT UP. You've got whoever added the fake cartoons into the mix - most likely whipping up a great deal more violence. You've got irresponsible reporting/passing on of information at almost every level. You've got religious extremists going batshit insane and encouraging other people to go batshit insane with them. You've got the racist elements in every European nation practically jerking themselves into a frenzy and trying to grab as many converts from this as they possibly can.
And here's the thing.
Muslims aren't going away any time soon. Without getting too HORRIBLE GREETINGS CARD about this, we're all going to have to find a way to live together.
This, it seems, will require the following:
Everyone calming the fuck down.
