SD on 13/2/2006 at 00:23
Quote Posted by Scots_Taffer
The day you open your mouth to defend (say) the Catholic Church or a large Christian denomination if they were copping a lot of unwarranted flak without due discrimination is the day I would fucking eat my hat.
Well, if the Catholic Church or a large Christian denomination ever cops a lot of unwarranted flak, then I'll be expecting you to follow through with that (corks and all).
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your inability to see yourself as a one-sided charicature of political correctness gone wrong just SCARES the shit out of me
I'll tell you what scares the shit out of me is that a whole fuckload of people in this country are being demonised because of the actions of a tiny minority. And then we get the mosques being petrolbombed and the Asians being attacked by mobs in the streets and our "Anglo-Saxon" majority umms and ahs and pretends that it has nothing to do with the culture of hatred that it helped foster. A culture war is exactly what people like the 7/7 bombers and the BNP want, and pandering to that element of society does not help anyone.
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the fact remains that elements of Muslim culture (not religion,
culture) are either sexist, violent or backwards in comparison to modern Christian culture and that fact will always cause a division.
I don't think Western culture is the same as Christian culture. Western culture is more "progressive" because it's jettisoned most of that religious baggage and secularised. And can you really tell me, when you see videos of our soldiers kicking Iraqi captives to a bloody pulp, that we're really all that much further along the path of cultural evolution anyway?
Scots Taffer on 13/2/2006 at 00:51
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Well, if the Catholic Church or a large Christian denomination ever cops a lot of unwarranted flak, then I'll be expecting you to follow through with that (corks and all).
Heh. Funnily enough, I doubt I'll ever be in that position (where I have to eat my hat, that is) because I find that overreaching comment to be largely empty in sentiment given your past posting on Christianity. :)
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
I'll tell you what scares the shit out of me is that a whole fuckload of people in this country are being demonised because of the actions of a tiny minority. And then we get the mosques being petrolbombed and the Asians being attacked by mobs in the streets and our "Anglo-Saxon" majority umms and ahs and pretends that it has nothing to do with the culture of hatred that it helped foster. A culture war is exactly what people like the 7/7 bombers and the BNP want, and pandering to that element of society does not help anyone.
Again, there is a segment of our society that is racist just as there is a segment of Muslim society that are fanatical, there are a whole fuckload of innocents in between but to fail to see the problems where they are evident within those segments is the problem.
The "demonisation" is only being applied by those who are already disposed to think that way, not everyone in the UK. This is what I'm talking about: you lambast people for generalising about Islam, yet you generalise the negative attributes such as demonisation to all of British culture (with your majority comment).
I would say that the majority realise it's simply the bad apple in the barrel syndrome - however, when that bad apple shares the same core as the rest of the apples, questions have to be asked. Legitimate questions about compatibility.
As a whole British racism is condemned, just as a whole Australian racism is condemned, but in the outcry legitmate problems with cultural incompatibility are masked by political correctness. There are serious issues with the fact that British Muslims live pretty much in isolation within the country and perhaps you believe that this is not out of choice, but by and large British Muslims (as with many cultural or religious migrant groups) do not wish to be integrated into British society (whatever that is).
This then boils down to a question of: what constitutes successful integration into society? And that's a toughie.
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
I don't think Western culture is the same as Christian culture. Western culture is more "progressive" because it's jettisoned most of that religious baggage and secularised. And can you really tell me, when you see videos of our soldiers kicking Iraqi captives to a bloody pulp, that we're really all that much further along the path of cultural evolution anyway?
I don't really see the relevance of the example to the discussion, as the cultural differences I'm talking about are not commonalities that are shared across all cultures (such as the capacity for violence and discrimination).
Paz on 13/2/2006 at 01:07
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
Also, when the IRA blew shit up it wasn't in God's name, and they didn't kill people for defaming the Virgin Mary or whatever, so I question the usefulness of that example.
Quote Posted by Aussie/Scots Taffer
And to Paz, speaking as an Irish Catholic, I can tell you that there were silent support of the IRA bombings in the Catholic community but it was largely to do with the purpose of their campaign and not anything to do with religion.
This brings up interestingness. Surely all instances of Islamic-based terrorism so far have also been politically, rather than religiously, motivated. Yes, they may have been surrounded with the language of religion - but at heart, are they not political actions? Insofar as the "action --> desired effect" equation goes, I think Catholic terrorism and Muslim terrorism can be loosely linked.
I mean, if we want to get pedantic-semantic, once you've blown some things up you're probably seriously at odds with the 'being a good muslim' parts of the religion.
This is somewhat apropos of nothing, but I thought it could join the mix.
Quote Posted by Chimpy
I wish we had a muslim or two on these forums, to discuss this all with.
This is the best I can do from ANOTHER PLACE:
"Okay, there seems to be some confusion about this on this thread. Obviously Muslims are not a monolithic group and I don't want to speak for all of them, but I will: ALL MUSLIMS WHO ARE MEANINGFULLY MUSLIM (and fuck, even lapsed Muslims like me) are liable to be upset by a cartoon that depicts the Prophet Muhammad as wearing a turban-bomb. He is beloved, by extremist and non-extremist Muslims. (I think the Muslim taboo on representing the Prophet is something of a red herring here: Muslims who are not ideologically extremist are probably comfortable with the fact that non-Muslims may, from time to time, represent the Prophet. It's the toxic portrayal of Muhammad that is really driving the outrage.)
Because there's been a lot of useless bickering about this so far: by saying this I'm not defending the reactions to the cartoon that involve sanctions, measures against the Danish government, etc. Some of the comments on this thread read to me as, "that's it, Muslims have to learn to stop being so Muslim." As is pointed out upthread, that is not going to happen. If relations between Muslims and non-Muslims in the West is going to get better (and the contact between the two is a given: there's no undoing that), both groups are going to have to drop the posturing of the utter insupportability of all of the values of the other group. That's why the cartoons are so unfortunate, on my view. (There are, of course, hundreds of stances that have been taken by various groups of Muslims that are similarly unfortunate.)"
Which I thought was quite well put.
Anyway, bottom line is that we all need to live in harmoneeeeeeey. Which doesn't mean joining hands and daisy chains. So long as everyone reaches the level of 'dvd x offends religion y' - 'religion y REACTS! .. in a non-violent, but probably fairly annoying way', I'll be happy enough.
Personally, I have no qualms about religion being regularly insulted at all. I think it's good and healthy, if done without any kind of genuine oppression (and yeah, I know I'm drifting into INDEFINABLE TERMS territory here). Ideally, I want a society where that can happen. Fuck, I want a society where ANYTHING can be ridiculed and pilloried. DAMN IT, I WANT THIS POST TO BE RIDICULED AND PILLORIED - if you can do it in a suitably clever way and make me laugh. Even if it doesn't make me laugh, you can still go ahead - but I want to be able to call it out as crap. It may even get heated, oh my! However, I won't try to stop other people reading it or set fire to your house. Probably.
Man, I don't know. I'm taking on issues which are waaaay too broad now.
Quote Posted by Chimpy
Thing is you keep mentioniong apologies - I never actually asked for an apology from anyone.
You're right, I jumped to that incorrectly.
Scots Taffer on 13/2/2006 at 01:13
Quote Posted by Paz
I mean, if we want to get pedantic-semantic, once you've blown some things up you're probably seriously at odds with the 'being a good muslim' parts of the religion.
True. I've never read the Qu'ran but isn't there something in there regarding the sacred sanction of actions done in defense of Islam or against infidels attacking Islam?
Anyway, on your other point, I find the most interesting, difficult to understand and perplexing question to be: what level of cultural adjustment is necessary when taking your cultural baggage to far away lands?
I always flip the "you're asking muslims to be less muslim" on its head and say, if I were in an Islamic country, would I do stuff that I am culturally allowed to do in my own country there? No. It's not about being less muslim, it's about efficiently and successful achieving integration with the society you're living in (obviously without the repression of it).
Paz on 13/2/2006 at 01:22
Quote Posted by Scots
True. I've never read the Qu'ran but isn't there something in there regarding the sacred sanction of actions done in defense of Islam or against infidels attacking Islam?
Possibly. But the next page probably says 'ps - not really'. I've also never read the Qu'ran .. can anyone tell yet?
Ambiguity and contradiction are kind of a given with large religious texts. I don't mean this in a "AHA, SO YOU SEE IT'S ALL NONSENSE!" way, just in a "it probably has to all be read and interpreted in context of the time/culture/faith" type way.
I anticipate that Christianity would rightly denounce anyone justifying some kind of bizarre action with a single Old Testament passage, for example. And, again, to cover my balls - I use examples from Christianity due to my upbringing, not as a vicious campaign of "YES WELL, CHRISTIANS ARE JUST AS BAD". Although I do think that given the right set of circumstances, a minority probably would be.
Quote Posted by Scots
I always flip the "you're asking muslims to be less muslim" on its head and say, if I were in an Islamic country, would I do stuff that I am culturally allowed to do in my own country there? No.
See, this is interesting. At the risk of being a nasty Imperial Fascist, I want to actually say YES! to this question. Absolutely if I happen to visit a mosque, I will respect any rules which are in place within that building. However, if (as in Dubai) I find the internet is censored of naughty naked nude ladies or some political content or other, I want to say THIS IS WRONG, YOU ARE WRONG TO DO THIS.
There are some things which I strongly feel transcend any religious control. If I want to learn about Marxism (and I have no idea if this would be prevented, but bear with me) in Dubai, then I should be able to. I want to rally and campaign against a whole bunch of stuff which authoritarian religious governments impose upon people - without being locked up or killed, preferably.
I believe strongly in progress. I am optimistic than when exposed to a little bit of progress, states pick up on it and it spreads like a happily spreading thing. I'd like to see this happen in many, many places.
I don't think it can ever successfully occur down the barrel of a gun. But that's another story entirely.
Quote Posted by Scots
It's not about being less muslim, it's about efficiently and successful achieving integration with the society you're living in (obviously without the repression of it).
I suppose, deep down, I may be forced to admit that through integration with society I'm hopeful that organised religion will continue to lose its power; conversely though, I feel that the loss of organised religious power may be a necessary condition of 'successful' integration. RIDDLE ME THAT.
Haha, shit, that makes no sense. Basically I stick to a hope that through rationale and rhyme and reason people gradually lose their hangups about PESKY HOMOSEX and SHOCKING COMEDY and whatever else their religion has told them is bad and evil and wrong, and everyone gets along a whole lot better.
Of course, I also realise that a great many people hold their faith and spirituality as strongly as I hold the belief in what I've just been rabbiting on about. Probably moreso, in fact.
So it's a tricky old puzzle, really.
I think the key is discussion without burnings. Of any kind. I mean, disagreement is fine. A lovely bit of disagreement in society is wonderful - just don't start killing people over it, I guess.
VVVVVVVVVV 2/10, and I'm being pretty damn generous.
aguywhoplaysthief on 13/2/2006 at 01:43
Quote Posted by Paz
Personally, I have no qualms about religion being regularly insulted at all. I think it's good and healthy, if done without any kind of genuine oppression (and yeah, I know I'm drifting into INDEFINABLE TERMS territory here). Ideally, I want a society where that can happen. Fuck, I want a society where ANYTHING can be ridiculed and pilloried. DAMN IT, I WANT THIS POST TO BE RIDICULED AND PILLORIED - if you can do it in a suitably clever way and make me laugh. Even if it doesn't make me laugh, you can still go ahead - but I want to be able to call it out as crap. It may even get heated, oh my! However, I won't try to stop other people reading it or set fire to your house. Probably.
Michael Moore is fat.
Scots Taffer on 13/2/2006 at 01:49
Quote Posted by Paz
See, this is interesting. At the risk of being a nasty Imperial Fascist, I want to actually say YES! to this question. Absolutely if I happen to visit a mosque, I will respect any rules which are in place within that building. However, if (as in Dubai) I find the internet is censored of naughty naked nude ladies or some political content or other, I want to say THIS IS WRONG, YOU ARE WRONG TO DO THIS.
There are some things which I strongly feel transcend any religious control. If I want to learn about Marxism (and I have no idea if this would be prevented, but bear with me) in Dubai, then I should be able to. I want to rally and campaign against a whole bunch of stuff which authoritarian religious governments impose upon people - without being locked up or killed, preferably.
I believe strongly in progress. I am optimistic than when exposed to a little bit of progress, states pick up on it and it spreads like a happily spreading thing. I'd like to see this happen in many, many places.
I also believe in progress and like you, I can respect other people's cultures; what I meant to say in my question wasn't "would I do ..." but rather "can I do...", since certain actions hold severe penalties in some of these countries - women and their dress sense springs to mind.
It isn't so much a question of restraint but rather of progress - Islamic culture needs to accept that in order to jive with the Western world, there need to be adjustments. As I said, I wouldn't expect to get along very well in Iran if I showed up wearing a witty slogan on my t-shirt and started to chat up some chicks at a local bar.
SD on 13/2/2006 at 02:04
Quote Posted by Scots_Taffer
As I said, I wouldn't expect to get along very well in Iran if I showed up wearing a witty slogan on my t-shirt and started to chat up some chicks at a local bar.
Well, no... your missus would clock you one :angel:
PS on the subject of Muslim integration, I believe the Qu'ran states very explicitly that Muslims living overseas should respect the rules of their hosts.
aguywhoplaysthief on 13/2/2006 at 02:35
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Well, no... your missus would clock you one :angel:
PS on the subject of Muslim integration, I believe the Qu'ran states very explicitly that Muslims living overseas should respect the rules of their hosts.
Is that as long as their hosts aren't infidels?
DarkViper on 13/2/2006 at 03:13
Quote Posted by Paz
Personally, I have no qualms about religion... make me laugh... I want a society where that can happen... I think it's good and healthy... DAMN IT... set fire to... oh... my... house. I WANT... TO BE... RIDICULED AND PILLORIED. I want... heated... crap... oh my!
Sorry.
