SubJeff on 12/2/2006 at 19:59
Meh. They can do that all they want but the truth is there are nations that are predominately Muslim, that have laws dervived in part from Islamic law, whose leaders are preacheing hate and violence and they stay in power. It wouldn't happen in the West (again) and we shouldn't have to put up with it. The sad fact is that many Muslims here agree with those nutters either fully or partially or they are prepared to turn a blind eye.
Chimpy Chompy on 12/2/2006 at 20:25
Yeah, it's the blind eye or sympathising-to-some-extent I'm thinking of, not suggesting all our muslim population is secretly longing to flip out and blow a train up.
SD on 12/2/2006 at 20:42
I don't like your double standard at all. Every single day our citizens turn a blind eye to the actions of our government abroad, and nobody says anything. Yet British Muslims are expected to apologise for the conduct of Muslims in other countries?
Why on Earth should a guy born into a Muslim family in Leicester have to disassociate himself from rioting by Muslims in Syria? Is there some sort of collective responsibility that applies to Muslims that doesn't apply to every other social grouping? You people are totally fucking bonkers.
D'Juhn Keep on 12/2/2006 at 20:53
You're not stupid, you must realise that there's considerable worry in the UK about the Muslim suicide bombers because several have been BORN AND RAISED in the UK. That is why many people want normal Muslims to dissociate themselves from any such extremism, as is the case for the majority.
SD on 12/2/2006 at 20:56
We've done the suicide bomb thing already, that was months ago. British Muslims were quick to disassociate themselves from that, because that concerned members of their community. This is a different issue.
D'Juhn Keep on 12/2/2006 at 21:00
oh i'm sorry
Quote Posted by D'Juhn Keep
You're not stupid, you must realise that there's considerable worry in the UK about Muslim extremists because several have been BORN AND RAISED in the UK.
That is why many people want normal Muslims to dissociate themselves from any such extremism, as is the case for the majority.
Chimpy Chompy on 12/2/2006 at 21:38
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
I don't like your double standard at all. Every single day our citizens turn a blind eye to the actions of our government abroad, and nobody says anything.
This is exactly what I addresed early. Lots of people protest. There is questioning and criticism every step of the way. The guardian, the media in general, you, even horrible old me in some cases! I question the muslim world's ability to criticise itself to the same extent.
I don't want british muslims to apologies for the conduct of Muslims in Syria countries, I want them to distance themselves from Muslims waving "death to the enemies of islam" banners here in Europe.
Paz on 12/2/2006 at 21:44
I can see why people want reassurance, but I'm not convinced that 'the Muslim community' (or whatever) is under any obligation whatsoever to provide it.
In the same way that YES, I'M GOING TO PEDDLE THIS TEDIOUS EXAMPLE AGAIN, there was no expectation that 'the Catholic community' would ever come out and say "terribly sorry about that IRA stuff .. sorry, sorry again .. sorry".
Hmm, I suppose my question is - why was it taken for granted that the majority of Catholics were unsupportive of terrorist action, whereas for Muslims we get out the SUSPICION-O-METER and want to hear them say that everything will be sweetness and light?
Possibly there is a realistic need there, and possibly .. there isn't. I'm undecided, personally. I know I'd be pretty pissed off if some Cure fans blew up a train and Britain requested an immediate apology from, well, me.
On the other hand, I'd be pretty swift to release a 'obviously these were lone nutters, blah blah' type statement. But then, I think Muslim groups in the UK have already done this kind of thing on a fairly regular basis?
It's all a bit :tinfoil: for me, to be honest.
Quote Posted by Chimpy
I question the muslim world's ability to criticise itself to the same extent.
However, I think this is a (different) and valid point. Organised religion isn't exactly the greatest at critical introspection.
Chimpy Chompy on 12/2/2006 at 22:36
Maybe my hat does have too much tinfoil in it? I wish we had a muslim or two on these forums, to discuss this all with.
Thing is you keep mentioniong apologies - I never actually asked for an apology from anyone. Just reassurance that batshit crazy stuff like beheadings and bombings A: aren't at the heart of Islam and B: aren't even slightly supported or sympathised with.
Also, when the IRA blew shit up it wasn't in God's name, and they didn't kill people for defaming the Virgin Mary or whatever, so I question the usefulness of that example.
Scots Taffer on 13/2/2006 at 00:06
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
I'll defend anyone who I believe is being hard done by. I have always had an inherent belief in fairness and justice. I spend a lot of time defending Islam because Muslims are (overwhelmingly) the most unfairly treated and marginalised grouping in today's society.
The day you open your mouth to defend (say) the Catholic Church or a large Christian denomination if they were copping a lot of unwarranted flak without due discrimination is the day I would fucking eat my hat.
I like you as a poster, Stronts, but your inability to see your continual defense of Islam as a one-sided charicature of political correctness gone wrong just SCARES the shit out of me - and again, that not-so-insignificant element of British society is one of the reasons I'm glad I'm the FUCK out of there.
And again, where the hell is all the marginalising happening? You seem to be confusing unpopularity with marginalisation, and I'm sorry to tell you that these crowds do nothing but fuel their unpopularity further -the fact remains that elements of Muslim culture (not religion,
culture) are either sexist, violent or backwards in comparison to modern Christian culture and that fact will always cause a division. The division in itself is not discrimination.
And to Paz, speaking as an Irish Catholic, I can tell you that there were silent support of the IRA bombings in the Catholic community but it was largely to do with the purpose of their campaign and not anything to do with religion.
