Starrfall on 15/4/2009 at 15:22
No the real victim is America
fett on 15/4/2009 at 17:23
The real victim is me. I followed that link to a news reel with Nancy Grace as the host. I wish someone would rape, murder, and put me in a suitcase.
Muzman on 15/4/2009 at 20:33
I'll never quite get my head around hearing some person's accused of something and then heading for the phone book to give them a call and share your (no doubt considered and in full posession of the facts) opinion of them. Never mind getting the wrong one. Amazing.
fett on 15/4/2009 at 20:59
No kidding. The whole thing of the kid being "raped by instrument" really makes me think there's more going on there than what we're getting. If it was a guy that did it, it would make more sense, but I'm having trouble picturing a woman with no history of sexual assault doing something so brutal to a kid. Bizarre.
Jenesis on 16/4/2009 at 00:05
Having had to go through the process myself a few times in order to look after children for my church and a couple of Christian summer camps, I thought I'd mention how this works in the UK, since it seems to be not too dissimilar to some of what fett's after.
In the UK, if you want to be able to work with children in pretty much any context whatsoever, including for a church, the organization you want to do it for needs to do a CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check done on you first. It used to be the case that if you'd had one done within the last three years for someone else, that was enough, but these days it's one per organization, each one needing to be renewed every three years. If you're going to be under constant supervision by someone with a valid CRB certificate, you might be able to get away without one yourself - I'm not quite sure what the exact rules are.
There are, I believe, a couple of different levels of check, but if you want to work with kids you have to go for the full-on one. You submit an application, and various organizations check to see if they think you're suitable. Your criminal records are checked, the NHS has a look at you (presumably for mental health issues), they check whether you're on lists of people considered to be potential risks to certain groups (at least I assume that's what 'Protection of Children Act List information' is), and every police authority within which you've lived for the past five years goes through their records to see if they can dig up any dirt on you. I'm not sure what Section 142 of the Education Act 2002 is, but apparently I passed whatever they were checking for under that, as well. Because your application goes round the houses like this, you're generally looking at six weeks minimum for a response.
Of course, a CRB check isn't going to do much to stand in the way of someone who is determined to abuse children in some way, they'd just have to find some other means of access to children, but I suppose if your form swings past the NHS then incidences of mental illness would be caught.
In any case, any church leader that allows unchecked people to work with children is going to find themselves in a boatload of trouble if they're found out, and even more trouble if some unchecked person harms a child in any way, so there's some hefty legal accountability there.
fett on 16/4/2009 at 01:35
Yeah - that's exactly the kind of thing we need here in the U.S. As it stands, the only time a church gets busted is if someone in the children's ministry is accused of sexual assault, and the church cannot show proof that they at least did random background checks. They only have to show that they made an effort, no matter how minimal, to prevent such a thing - there is no prior requirement for working with children.
To further illustrate the point of this thread, I spoke with my mother-in-law earlier today. Devout Right-wing fundamentalist Christian, but without the typical hatred for gays and blacks. Still, I would die for this woman - that's how much I care for her, even more than my own mom, and if you ever met her you would be in awe of how much ass she proverbially kicks as a mother, grandmother, and all round human being. It's a bizarre paradox.
When we discussed this issue I said, "I hope there's a special level of hell reserved for people that hurt children."
Her response: "Well, but when you think about it, we all really deserve to be in hell." (this is ostensibly because we have all "sinned and fallen short of the glory of God). This is one of the most intelligent people I've ever known. She is professional, loving, and continually advances in the medical community because she is so much fucking smarter than you. But she has been so brainwashed about anything spiritual that it's like talking to a complete lunatic. :confused::erg::(
This mentality is typical - a person who has done something like this isn't really any worse than the rest of us because we're all sinners in some way or another.
Tocky on 16/4/2009 at 03:38
I know. I've got a sister like that. What I tell her is that if God can't differentiate between someone who curses or steals an apple because they are hungry and someone who rapes and kills then that's a damn good reason not to worship him.
At the other end of the spectrum you have the ultra logical who argue that harming the innocent is no different than harming the guilty. Hey if they won't do it again then there is no reason not to forgive them and let them walk among us right? Anything else is just punishment and that is wrong. I just can't grab either end of that shitty stick. I won't ever be intelligent enough to disregard morality. Thank heaven.
Nicker on 16/4/2009 at 05:12
As well as the emotional conflicts there can be a lot of ego invested in one's faith too. (mea culpa) Backing down from an absolute position is a scary and humiliating concept. Once you have publicly declared on the hereafter there's not much wiggle room.
My pastor's prescription for the Doubting Thomas was to explain that doubt was just another shade of denial. Now the pressure was really on. I recognised a lot of 'fight or flight' response in myself (and I see that in other believers who began to see the insecurity of their position). All the more reason to defend it... rigorously. Or to the deth...
You can start to feel like Dr. Strangelove, possessed by dueling spirits.
Be afraid...
fett on 16/4/2009 at 14:43
I know that feeling exactly Nicker. That's one reason I'm kind of hiding out in the Ozarks right now. Hoping people will forget about me. Also the plastic surgery.
For the issue about "degrees" of sin, the doctrine reads in such a way that sin is sin is sin. The worst mass murder and the little white lie both nailed Jesus to the cross, therefore, everyone is on equal footing when it comes to sin. It's like the sentiment, "But for the grace of God, there go I," but taken to a ridiculous extreme and applied practically within the community. To which I respond, "Never there goeth I. Haveth I no intention to rapeth and killeth little girliths."
Harvester on 16/4/2009 at 23:34
Quote Posted by Nicker
Contrasted to the joy of my salvation was the dread I felt for my family and friends, condemned to burn in hell for eternity. I had to save them! I had to save everybody! What caring person would not? Their stubbornness in denying the plainly obvious truth, drove me to deeper despair and anger. Why couldn’t they just shut up and accept salvation already?!
My pastor assured me I was not responsible for them, beyond bearing witness. He said that their torment would not touch me in heaven – but I also knew that Aquinas said that the suffering of the damned was the icing that made the cake of heaven all the more delicious. What’s a believer to do?
From my own experience I can say that blending the message of love with the message of damnation creates enormous inner conflicts and these will express themselves in emotional life of the sufferer. (And yes, it is suffering.) I am certain that this conflict has been in the heart of many people justifying violence in the name of God. At the very least it adds moral and ethical ambiguity to the pathology of people already suffering from
weak grasp on reality syndrome.
I'm a christian but I must reluctantly admit that I recognize this. I wish I didn't :(.
