fett on 14/4/2009 at 16:41
Minority Report ftw.
demagogue on 14/4/2009 at 18:02
If the pastor did know something, there's another angle in the law that isn't as forgiving as the other things you mentioned...
He could be liable for criminal neglegence if he really knew she was dangerous and put him in a situation that any reasonable person would know invites violence.
But even more likely (because of the lower burden of proof), the pastor could be hit with aiding & abetting tort liability (meaning he compensates the victims' families with $), if you can say he facilitated the woman's wrongful death tort by knowingly putting a dangerous person in the care of children.
And in situations like this, criminal or tort liabilty actually does an important public service because, like you say, if there are roadblocks to regulating the behavior of pastors like other councilors, there needs to be some mechanism that gets them to think twice before creating situations like this. And liability is one of them.
Kolya on 14/4/2009 at 18:56
Does it happen often that Sunday school teachers kill or abuse children? One un-proven case certainly is not worth a call for action.
How many people who may have stumbled along the edge of whatever problems they had, have learned through taking on a responsible role in a church to take responsibility of their life as well?
Oh and Nicker, crime in a church only seems more disappointing, if you actually believed that Christians were better people than anyone else.
fett on 14/4/2009 at 19:12
Quote Posted by demagogue
And in situations like this, criminal or tort liabilty actually does an important public service because, like you say, if there are roadblocks to regulating the behavior of pastors like other councilors, there needs to be some mechanism that gets them to think twice before creating situations like this. And liability is one of them.
I think this is what I'm getting at. Whether the pastor knew in this particular case is irrelevant. But there should be some type of liability if he actually did.
An example I can give is a situation where I had a "reformed" (bullshit) sex offender who wanted to work with the kids because he felt it was part of his recovery. Obviously he had to let me know he was an offender, and he could only be with children in the presence of other adults. I basically told him to fuck off (in Christianese, of course), but that he was welcome to attend and get involved in any other area of the ministry. He showed up at another church in town a few months later, guess where? Children's ministry. The pastor had to know the guy was an offender, but when I questioned him about it, he assured me that the guy was a "new creation" in Christ, forgiven, and that the Holy Spirit was using this experience to "heal" him. Scary, scary, shit.
Quote Posted by Kolya]
Oh and Nicker, crime in a church only seems more disappointing, if you actually believed that Christians were better people than anyone else.
But isn't that exactly the dangerous thing about it? Most people attending church actually do believe they're better than anyone else (as a community) and therefore don't question who is watching their kids, directing the youth group, etc. There have even been cases where the church found out someone was porking their kids but didn't report it because the predator was a "brother." (Yes, I wish I was kidding)
Kolya on 14/4/2009 at 21:45
I see. The double standard permeates the community as well as the church then. That of course is a problem not limited to hushing up child molestation. It may seem easier first, to convince people like that of background screenings for their child care personal. But they may well deny that because of their underlying double standard. And that may be an unshakable foundation of their belief.
Nicker, watch (
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0382189/) My Summer of Love sometime. It has a great depiction of the dilemma a born again Christian is in + hot lesbo sex. No kidding, it's one of my favourites.
The_Raven on 14/4/2009 at 22:59
Quote Posted by Nicker
I trace the problem to the conflicting messages of love and fear that forms the basis of Christian thought, or more properly, Christian emotions. Through my junior high and high school years I was a fervent born again Christian. The impact of that “rebirth” was deeply emotional and powerful. Since then, I have learned that this experience is not exclusive to Christianity and can be achieved through a number of practices under the rubric of many different spiritual paths. For the unprepared it can seem like a bolt from heaven – try it sometime.
Contrasted to the joy of my salvation was the dread I felt for my family and friends, condemned to burn in hell for eternity. I had to save them! I had to save everybody! What caring person would not? Their stubbornness in denying the plainly obvious truth, drove me to deeper despair and anger. Why couldn’t they just shut up and accept salvation already?!
My pastor assured me I was not responsible for them, beyond bearing witness. He said that their torment would not touch me in heaven – but I also knew that Aquinas said that the suffering of the damned was the icing that made the cake of heaven all the more delicious. What’s a believer to do?
Born again Christians, along with other fundamentalists, scare me. :erg:
PeeperStorm on 15/4/2009 at 01:54
Quote Posted by fett
ex-prostitutes/murderers/alcoholics/Nick Cave fans
You have to keep an eye on those fuckers.
Yeah. They're a bunch of Bad Seeds.
Nicker on 15/4/2009 at 05:16
Quote Posted by The_Raven
Born again Christians, along with other fundamentalists, scare me. :erg:
Scarier still is the trail of emotional reaction that can lead from feeling anguish at the imminent suffering of others (soon to be cast into the pits of hell), to resentment at the pain they cause you. One can trace this to the justifications of salvation violence (e.g. the Inquisition, Genocide, Jesus Camp...).
Fingernail on 15/4/2009 at 14:45
She's the real victim in all this.
