june gloom on 7/8/2010 at 17:58

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I would argue that apatheism is more logical. In many ways it's like agnosticism, but instead of saying "I don't know if there is a God or not, I can't really make that call," apatheism says, "Who gives a shit?"

june gloom on 7/8/2010 at 18:06

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Yeah it's like, proof God exists? That's great, what's it got to do with me? People still cut me off on I-75 and I'm still hungry.

Rug Burn Junky on 7/8/2010 at 18:23

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And the manner in which he does so is perfectly justifiable, because his thoughts on the subject are far more sophisticated than simply "Go war, Rah-Rah!"

He's taking the long term, global macro-political view. That the long term consequences of having a functioning, stable democracy will more predictably lead to a better outcome for everyone than continued rule by Saddam and the resultant power struggles and instability after his rule.

The potential for this positive outcome justifies the gamble in his mind. It's a legitimate, logically sound argument.

I can't disagree with that, simply because it's yet to be determined. The long view of history may yet prove him correct. I probably take a much dimmer view of this likelihood succeeding than he does, but I would be a fool to dismiss it entirely. Don't forget, that while he approved of the idea of invading Iraq, he was suspicious of the Bush administration from the get go. His quote on the matter was roughly "This may be the exact right war, but these are the exact wrong people to pull it off."

Part of the reason that we can disagree with him is that we simply take a different view of the costs. Selfishly, as an american citizen the costs are too high, both in lives, money and the safety of our current populace. That changes the calculus, even if you don't deal with the likelihood of it working. Acting for the greater good isn't always in one's own best interest (no matter what some simpleton tard says because he once heard someone talk about Adam Smith and the invisible hand.) The incentives don't align. The costs to America are here and now, the benefits are too uncertain and remote. Should there be greater threat down the road, A) we would never know whether it could have been averted but for a hypothetical counterfactual, and B) the burden of dealing with it may be greater, but it also may be shared more equitably among the global population. That's why I can definitively say that it was a bad idea for us, and we absolutely shouldn't have done it, while granting that long term, it may still serve the greater good of the global populace (in spite of whatever flaws and mistakes were made in carrying it out initially).

There are variables which we simply can't know, and reasonable men can disagree on them. Granting these untestable differences, one can disagree with his final opinion, but the force and coherence of his argument is such that you can't simply dismiss it entirely. There are quite a few here who could learn a lot from that.

And that is why he is a brilliant man. For all of his bluster and bravado, he backs it up. He strives for reason in every argument he makes, and is intellectually honest and principled even when he is infuriating. We'll all be worse off with him gone, and I sincerely hope that that inevitability is forestalled as long as possible.

N'Al on 7/8/2010 at 18:53

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Fair enough. I still don't think it's really an issue, but then again maybe I just haven't met too many vocal atheists who won't shut up. Yet.

Nicker on 7/8/2010 at 19:18

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That's only because the apetheists you know haven't yet aligned themselves with the formal ruling body of apatheism, The Ecclesia Apatheitica Catholica, or Universal Church of Apatheism. It affords all the benefits of organised congregations without the burden of a deity; ritual, dogma, nifty buildings, tax shelters, obligatory community, tithing, rad head gear... It's all here.

So line up, sign up and get free today!


It is so sad to hear that Hitchens is ill. He is such an articulate and unflinching voice against the tyranny of belief over reason. I suspect that certain quarters are already preparing hoax deathbed conversion stories but what's one more quanta of bullshit going to mean, coming from them.

Get well, Hitch. The world needs you.

I differ with him on Iraq, not because tyrants should be tolerated but because the timing was disastrously wrong and GWB's motives got in the way. It would have been better to secure Afghanistan first. Wars on multiple fronts seldom go well for the aggressor.