Ostriig on 10/12/2008 at 18:56
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
One of the most immersive factors with DX was that they didn't want to present a shiny clean super-tech world (Paris possibly being and exception to this), they wanted to show a gritty, dirty urban existance where everything was falling apart. That decision runs very contrary to typical sci-fi and is a major part of the essence of cyberpunk (Gibson's Sprawl trilogy wasn't called "sprawl" for no reason.)
True. And the concept art for Shanghai is very promising in this regard. Have another look (
http://images.gamestar.de/images/idgwpgsgp/bdb/1985580/122.jpg) here and (
http://images.gamestar.de/images/idgwpgsgp/bdb/1985581/122.jpg) here. Observe the layered structure of the city, and how the buildings on top bask comfortably in the light of the sun, whereas the lower levels are plunged into darkness beneath them, only lit up by meager electrical means. If my memory serves me well, this is very much in tune with Gibson's vision of a cyberpunk future.
Agreed on IW - it was way too sci-fi shiny squeaky clean. Felt more like Star Trek than Neuromancer. Only the lower level of the Seattle Enclave tried to capture that feeling of a futuristic, yet festering and decaying urban maze, and failed horribly as far as I'm concerned. In this particular sense, I got a much better vibe from some of the areas in Stark in The Longest Journey.
BlackCapedManX on 11/12/2008 at 05:33
For reference, real world NYC has been talking about something along the lines of reducing subway traffic frequency along the lettered lines because the city can't afford to keep running those lines, even though some of them are already over saturated with passangers (try taking the C from lower Manhattan uptown at noon on a Friday, it's a gross-ass train to begin with, and it's packed as all hell.) I guess I see DX as an extrapolation from this, where the city can't afford to run barely anything, hence why you have a whole abandoned subway line beneath Battery Park.
I've sort of envisioned the cyberpunk dystopian future as one where poverty spreads much faster than wealth (or even that as poverty spreads, wealth shrinks around a tighter locus,) so to imagine that Shanghai as a whole can manage to build a second tier of the wealthy, for a whole city, is just more of the upper/lower split that IW goes for. The rapid degeneration of society I'd be expecting would have nearly all of the city dwelling in darkness and poverty, and maybe a handful of gleaming lights for the gluttony and self-servance of the rich. I'd think the wealth would be in the hands of such a select few that an explosion of "shiny" urban growth doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Basically the idea that a whole city can become wealthy enough to build on top of itself reads more like say, 5th Element or Star Wars than Neuromancer.
Ostriig on 12/12/2008 at 00:07
Well, while the context you describe is a perfectly good option for the reality of the first Deus Ex, you still have to take into account that this third installment is set more than more than two decades before that. If you'll allow me to oversimplify this, things have to be "good" before they can be "bad". Somewhat related to this point, and more directly in relation to Shanghai, I don't know how China's financial situation is faring now, with the recession still holding the headlines across Europe and North America, but just last year, if I recall correctly, it was praised as being the fastest growing economy in the world.
And while the Shanghai concept pieces definitely get across the idea of a stark social stratification, I don't think we can make a consistent guess as to the rich to poor ratio off them.
van HellSing on 12/12/2008 at 00:25
I had a bit of brainstorming with a friend about Shanghai, and how the situation in DX3 might be possible.
First of all, in no way is it possible that (
http://images.gamestar.de/images/idgwpgsgp/bdb/1985581/122.jpg) this pic shows the entire city. Shanghai is huge and sprawling city today, what's in this pic is probably one new district.
Secondly, once you look past the buildings, the whole giant, supported platform thing looks somewhat like an oversized oil rig type of structure. Remember Big Shell from MGS2?
So, we thought up this scenario: the Chinese government wanted to construct a giant, geothermal powerplant to power the whole province. However, a great amount of funds was obviously needed to build a structure like that. So, they sold unique, attractive real estate on the plant's surface to the highest bidders. The plant itself obviously needed large amount of (poorly paid, ha!) staff and other support, so low standard quaters were built underneath the platform as well. Add to that some wild, unplanned, uncontrolled and largely illegal urban growth, and you've got the current situation.
Plausible enough for a DX game?
BlackCapedManX on 12/12/2008 at 01:44
It just feels far too, and I guess this is problematic, but articulate. Like I really want a cyberpunk theme, because I think that DX picks up on a lot of that and, but I feel like a key portion of cyberpunk is that everything the "reader" witnesses, is the filth and dismay of the average person, sure there are the rich and well off, but their existance and their circumstances are not what's important. For example, in DX Versalife and Page Industries are the big shady corporations, but unlike, say the WTO from IW, your only direct relationship to them is as an entity, something tied up in a whole scheme that's far bigger and shadier, rather than being humanized the way both the WTO and the Illuminati in general were in IW.
I think I've been swayed a bit over this Shanghai business, and I can understand where this might make sense in the context of DX3. I simply have an aversion to tiered cities, they feel too much like Midgar (FFVII,) and err much closer to a fantasy or at least very soft sci-fi feel, which is contrary to the gritty "realism" you'd expect from cyberpunk. Like I can understand a far-fetched explanation for it, but it's something that the writers are going to be hard pressed to make seem natural in a future reality environment. It feels much more like a cop-out plot device, like, "look, you guys see this? this is class struggle, see? we've got it right here" rather than something that's likely to be fully justified within the context of the game history. I'm asking myself "honestly, why would anyone ever build a city directly upon another city, for reals?" and I'm coming up with a blank for an answer other than as a very old plot device (sure, Metropolis was fucking amazing, but to go from where we are here, to stacked cities in DX3, and still make it from there to DX, seems contrived.)
[edit] This isn't to say that I'm fundamentally against this city layering, I just think they've already got the legacy of Upper/Lower Seattle in IW to work against (I mean, they keep saying they want to make a game like DX and not like IW... are they sure? do they know which is which? as much as they say "don't worry, we're basing our game on DX because it was really good," you still have to remember that IW was based on DX to begin with anyway, and they still screwed it up) and are going to be hard pressed to make an environment like that feel natural. I hope they can do it, because it looks pretty cool, I'm just not going to give them any more credit until they've earned it. I think one of DX's strongest points is that even though it takes place 50 years from now, it feels very much like today, it didn't strive too hard to be sci-fi, which I think is something that's not being realized for the other games in the series which place way more emphasis on this taking place in the future.
BlackCapedManX on 12/12/2008 at 12:18
Well you're doing a lot to win me over to this concept at any rate, I just really hope they have a better explanation for a super-construction like that than "the rich live here, and the poor live here, duh."
Though considering the way it extends over to the bordering island kind of makes me think of the elevated shuttle that runs around JFK, so maybe the whole second layer serves some kind of airport function (which that flat runway looking extension on the right might suggest.) Or they realized that the actual ground couldn't support the weight of all of the construction going on and was beginning to deteriorate or sink or something. Or your powerplant idea.
Ostriig on 12/12/2008 at 12:59
Yeah, I also thought about that - what we're seeing need not be the case for the entire city. But it's really more of an anybody's guess at that.
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
I just really hope they have a better explanation for a super-construction like that than "the rich live here, and the poor live here, duh."
It's a fact that, nowadays, tall buildings are an issue of efficient investment in certain areas of many developed cities around the world - there are parts of town where it's simply not cost effective to purchase an expensive piece of land and then not build a minimum of X levels on it. I suppose it's possible that something of the sort could also factor in to the concept for this futuristic Shanghai.
The_Raven on 12/12/2008 at 16:10
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
It feels much more like a cop-out plot device, like, "look, you guys see this? this is class struggle, see? we've got it right here" rather than something that's likely to be fully justified within the context of the game history. I'm asking myself "honestly, why would anyone ever build a city directly upon another city, for reals?" and I'm coming up with a blank for an answer other than as a very old plot device (sure, Metropolis was fucking amazing, but to go from where we are here, to stacked cities in DX3, and still make it from there to DX, seems contrived.)
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I think one of DX's strongest points is that even though it takes place 50 years from now, it feels very much like today, it didn't strive too hard to be sci-fi, which I think is something that's not being realized for the other games in the series which place way more emphasis on this taking place in the future.
I think others are starting to get at what I was trying to say earlier. While I don't think the concept art for Deus Ex 3 is out of place for a futuristic setting, I do think it is a bit of a stretch for a Deus Ex prequel. Deus Ex presented a future where things looked the same as they did today, only more worn and abandoned. Most of the areas outside of corporate locations felt like they were entering a state of ruin, and no signs of this layered city approach to a social gap is found in the architecture. Sure, certain sectors where certainly more better off than others; but the richer districts weren't build on top of poorer ones, they were merely segregated by more traditional means. Like BlackCapedManX said, this type of environment looks interesting as a game space; only, it just doesn't seem appropriate for a prequel.
van HellSing on 12/12/2008 at 20:00
Once again, this is not an "approach". From all we know, Hengsha might be pretty unique.
By the way, IRL, on the neighbouring island a self-supporting arcology is being built, the first phase scheduled to finish by 2010. While it looks nothing like the urban monstrosity of DX3 (It's supposed to be eco-friendly'n'shit), it's a unique urban/social experiment type of project.
