Here's a tip. - TTLG Forums

june gloom on 24/7/2009 at 01:06

Quote Posted by Queue

Most pop cultural reference don't have a place in any good writing. They become dated quickly and eventually obscure, thus losing the power of the reference to later readers.

The way I brought up the pop-culture references- the few that I used- were in such a way that they were either from an already bygone era, or were used so subtly that unless you were looking for it, or if you were familiar with the stuff being referenced, you wouldn't notice it.

Queue on 24/7/2009 at 01:09

Have you got an example, dt?

june gloom on 24/7/2009 at 01:23

Here's the only one I could find that actively made use of pop culture from a bygone era.

At this point in the story, the characters had entered a grocery store that had been abandoned since around 1990, and as such the place was a bit of a time capsule of the period.

(formatting ate the pagebreaks)

Quote:

Old G. I. Joes and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles hung from pegs on the wall, and next to them were the My Little Ponies and big bright toy trucks, all of it covered by pinpoints of light from the ceiling. Something rattled when she stepped on it, and she looked down to see a dust-covered sign that once had hung from the ceiling, but the chains had rusted and snapped. She took a picture of it, then decided to find the others.

She found Nash a couple aisles away, flipping through what seemed to be an ancient Superman comic. The paper had yellowed and there seemed to be water damage. “Trip down memory lane?” she asked, smirking. Nash was always a big comics fan, she knew.
“Man, the art back then was totally shit.”
“You never liked anything from the 1990s, did you?”
“Worst decade ever.”

Apparently Clarke didn't like that.

PeeperStorm on 24/7/2009 at 01:27

I don't like pop culture. Yeast makes the soda taste funny.

Queue on 24/7/2009 at 01:44

Was it the reference to G.I. Joe, My Little Pony, and TMNT that he didn't like? It's actually where I'm hanging up. I'd raher it have been something a little more descriptive meaning wise, instead of a laundry list of toys. Maybe like this: "Old action figures from a boy's youth, when days were spent pursuing comic books and daydreams, hung from makeshift pegs on the wall." A bit over the top, yes, but hopfully you get the idea. And I'm drunk

You see, even with something as familiar to you as G.I. Joe and Ninja Turtles, these items may not have much meaning to many readers. There are kids out there now who have never heard of a Ninja Turtle, and may only know of G.I. Joe from the (what looks to be shitty) up coming movie. So they will have no idea of the pop culture reference.

Example: without googling it, what is my "location" referencing?

june gloom on 24/7/2009 at 01:56

Except TMNT and GI Joe are fairly ubiquitous as toys go in the US. Just because we grew up and forgot about them for 20 years doesn't mean they weren't still being sold to kids.

And anyway all fiction is a product of its time. How well that ages over the years is entirely dependant on how important certain aspects of that timeperiod are to the story. We don't complain about historical fiction because it portrays events that we weren't alive for, do we? So what's the big issue with a fucking TMNT toy, which gets mentioned once in the whole story?

What you're basically saying is that I should try to appeal to a broader audience. Maybe you're right, but too broad an audience and you end up diluting the story. Especially since the story the example is from is first and foremost a horror story. Not my best one, maybe, but that's beside the point.

Queue on 24/7/2009 at 02:20

Quote Posted by dethtoll

And anyway all fiction is a product of its time. ... So what's the big issue with a fucking TMNT toy, which gets mentioned once in the whole story?

No. Fiction is the byproduct of how a writer views the world around him. Fiction is what happens when that writer tries to understand that world. And the issue is this: Can the story be told, and/or stand alone, without the explicit reference to some trademarked product or cultural event? If so, then don't include them. If not, then you're not writing.

Quote:

What you're basically saying is that I should try to appeal to a broader audience.

I can see where you might get that idea, but no. A more expressive type of writing, as opposed to referential, will gain you more readers. If I picked up a story which began with the exact same sentence as yours did, I'd stop reading it--no matter how good the rest of it may be I'd never know because I couldn't get past the need for the author to take, what is essentially, shortcuts instead of creating an image.

Quote:

Maybe you're right, but too broad an audience and you end up diluting the story.

How on earth can you dilute a story by not having an audience? What you can do is be unwilling to find a better way to write, which will "cost you" an audience. The stance of so many "artists" in regards to their writing.

YuSeF on 24/7/2009 at 02:21

Never get PSI. It's a waste of cyber modules!

june gloom on 24/7/2009 at 02:26

Queue, you are drunk. I never said the story began with those lines- aren't you paying attention? The pop-culture bit isn't even a majour part of the story. It's what, maybe 10 short lines? I just wanted to present a small piece of late-80s/1990 Americana, I'm sorry if you have a problem with that.

This is what Clarke couldn't understand either. It's not fucking necessary to remove all visible elements- pop culture references or not- of a given timeperiod just to appeal to somebody 40 years down the road. And just by the way, just because YOU won't read it doesn't mean someone else won't. So don't give me that shit about writing for no audience- which didn't even make sense as you appear to have completely misunderstood what I said. If I wanted to write a story that appealed to a very broad audience I'd... you know what? I don't fucking know any author who actively TRIES to appeal to everybody. Because you can't. You just write. And a couple pop-culture references here and there, whether they refer to TMNT or Coldplay or goddamn Burmashave isn't going to fuck up an entire story.

Clarke gave somebody else a bunch of shit for writing a fucking zombie story. The story used no elements that specifically stated it took place in a given timeperiod so it could've been the late 60s or it could have been 2010. He just didn't like the idea that zombies, long used as a plot device in films, could be something to drive a human-condition story. The point is that he's a pretentious douchebag who liked to force his ideas on how to write on other people, kinda like what you're doing now.

So here's a fucking tip: Don't drink and post, unless you're Scots.

Scots Taffer on 24/7/2009 at 02:28

Quote Posted by Aja

Not true—I took a year-long course in creative non-fiction last year and it did more to improve my writing than just about all of my other English courses.

As Queue pointed out and as you clearly demonstrate, your teacher didn't inform you regarding SEMANTICS.

Arf arf, a joke's a joke but the point remains: I wasn't saying it can't aid a writer in any way but just that you CANNOT teach someone how to be a creative writer, that they have ideas and want to tell stories is a seed that cannot be planted and must be an internal motivation, but honing and defining the craft? Sure. It can be useful.