Muzman on 15/12/2008 at 14:57
I couldn't find a thread about this so I have made one. I guess it's not that big of a movie but the more I think about it I don't really know why. It's a lot better than most other blockbuster-y adventure films you can name from recent times, it's also got everything they've got and then some. The acting's better, the effects are better (and bigger and more imaginative) and the action is terrific. Too many ideas and not enough normal humans perhaps? Too violent for kids and too comic book for adults? Who knows.
Anyway, I recently got the DVD so I blab. Del Toro's special DVDs are generally must-haves for any behind the scenes nerd (Blade 2 is a rather silly film with a few good ideas. Its director's cut dvd however is absolutely essential for all of its serious special effects and lighting nuts and bolts content that almost nobody else includes. And on the commentary you get del Toro and the producer cacking themselves at the cheesy things they did).
The first one was a really charming cast held back by plot and budget. What I really wanted was more team interaction. It also didn't have the bizarre vibe of the comics, that every single legend or fairytale was simultaneously true and you never knew what was going to happen next, mostly because there weren't that many monsters.
They fixed that this time around. This one is thick with beasts from the get go and then they take you to the beasty underworld for good measure. The whole cast is generally present throughout, which is probably the best part. Red and Blue have chemistry I find really funny and they let Manning right off the hook in this one. Krauss the gas man is really well done too, in a twist on the company man type (they twist being that he's ectoplasmic gas in a diving suit that works in reverse) probably performed by about ten people all up. And Liz as the sensible one (who explodes occasionally), without being gratingly smug and superior (a pitfall of women in geeky endeavours; they're written either as bimbos or arm-folding, foot tapping Wilma Flintstones who don't know why they put up with these stupid man-children except they're so sweet and funny now and then).
Anyone who ever complained about the trend to hand-held montages of split second cuts for every fight scene of late should be in heaven with this one (although I thought The Dark Knight eased off admirably from the first film). All the action is really bold stuff with impressive choreography, shot with simple clarity. You can see what's going on and it's generally really cool, in other words.
Plus they managed to recreate the Mignola vibe. It might just be the density of stuff in the movie that's just tossed in with scant explanation, but it has that same tone to it. The plots aren't usually that great, nor the dialogue. But the world (universe) seems huge and surreally weird and the characters navigate it with aplomb. Hellboy 2 has this. This might actually be part of it that turns people off. Start introducing confusing whackiness and people get annoyed. Dunno what's a plot point/item and what isn't. But I think of it as with kids and those sprawling things kids get into. You know how they can recite every absurd convolution, convenience and contradiction in, say, Dragonball or something and you have no idea where to even begin. They just go with it. Hellboy is a little like that. You just have to go with it. I enjoy the characters a lot so it's easy enough. Plus punching old ladies and the locker room fight (you'll see) never seems to get old.
Kid's stuff, for adults you see. And not in an Adam Sandler way.
Give it a shot if you haven't.
BEAR on 15/12/2008 at 17:35
I really wanted to like this movie. I liked the first Hellboy, and I liked the trailer for this one (it made the movie look a lot more actiony and included some rocking rammstien with it), but I had a very hard time.
It looked fucking awesome. The angel thing looked awesome, the giant growing plant-god thing looked awesome, the golden army looked awesome. The movie was really more of a romantic comedy without the comedy. I don't think I've just gotten too old for this type of movie, I think this type of movie is right up my alley if done in not a totally juvenile manor. It was like an emo romantic comedy.
The movie had Seth McFarland (from family guy) in it as this german, I dont know thing. I noticed it immediately but wasn't sure until I got home to check the credits (or maybe I saw the credits, cant remember if I could stand to stay that long). His last line made me cringe, I couldn't fucking believe they put it in there. It gives me shivers even now thinking about it it was so bad. I don't see how that got past anyone. I guess if they offered me millions of dollars I'd whore myself out too, but it was disappointing. It pretty well underscores just how bad the movie was, and who they were pitching the movie to.
Watch without sound, or perhaps turn it into a different language and turn off subtitles and it will be a lot more enjoyable.
Queue on 15/12/2008 at 18:15
While a bit uneven (and emo, as BEAR pointed out), I enjoyed it, finding the franchise more enjoyable than most of the superhero movies. I do hope they make a third film to tie up the story-line.
Muzman on 16/12/2008 at 02:26
You going have to define 'emo' for me. Based on my current experience of the term Dark Knight, say, is about a million billion times more emo than this and most of it didn't work that well. Hellboy is way too breezy and Saturday Matinee to even attract the term (Barry Manilow = nuff said).
Anyway, I know what y'all mean generally though. I didn't like it all that much on the first viewing; it was just a whole lot of ... stuff that was kinda interesting. The pop songs are jarring and, yes, Krauss' last line is always a headshaker for me. I'll be mad about that for a while.
If you liked any of it, though, it could be worth another look at some point. It's a grower. (Yeah it's not perfect, but I can't remember the last time I thought a film was wholly amazing. Maybe Fight Club is the most recent)
Fafhrd on 16/12/2008 at 02:45
The only thing about Hellboy II that I actively dislike is Danny Elfman's score. Marco Beltrami's score for the first film was such a perfect companion to it, it sort of redefined the musical background for the entire Hellboy universe for me, but where Beltrami was quirky, with a hint of the eerie, Elfman goes full bore into "kooky," thus broadening subtly comedic scenes into slapstick, and breaking them slightly (for an example of this, look no further than Hellboy, Abe, and Johann sneaking up and hiding from the troll behind the dumpster. Now imagine the BPRD Theme from Hellboy 1 in place of Elfman's saxophone bit, with the theremin kicking in when the old lady's mouth unhinges to eat the cat), and where Beltrami went heroic, Elfman goes EPIC and it just feels wrong to me.
Otherwise there's just so much greatness that, frankly, if you don't at least like it, I don't want to know you. The puppet war is my favourite sequence of any film this year, and the final fight between Hellboy and Nuada is just a brilliantly choreographed and shot piece of work (and done without wires, to boot).
(And firm second to the love of Del Toro's Blade II commentary. If you can watch that and not know that Guillermo's the goods, you must hate movies.)
BEAR on 16/12/2008 at 04:14
I did like blade II and I liked hellboy one, but this one just rubbed me the wrong way. I think the biggest disappointment was it the fact that it had so much potential. It had such good parts and looked so incredibly awesome, but was brought down by really awkward humor and a lack of action at times. That last line by McFarland's character just sealed the deal.
Angel Dust on 16/12/2008 at 07:28
Quote Posted by Muzman
Plus they managed to recreate the Mignola vibe. It might just be the density of stuff in the movie that's just tossed in with scant explanation, but it has that same tone to it.
That's something I think the films completely fail at. The comics to me are dustier and spookier and are more steeped in classic myth than outright fantasy. The films are far too bright and jammed to the brim with far too many quirky creatures, less would definitely be more in this case. I do think Del Toro is one of the most naturally talented filmmakers of his generation but he doesn't do Hellboy justice in my opinion.
Ron Pearlman is the fucking shit though.
Muzman on 16/12/2008 at 08:58
I get that, tone wise. The books definitely aren't as overtly funny. And in some sense it would all work better in the shorter form like the comics often are where they could do smaller and spookier cases from time to time. But things like the elemental and the angel of death in particular are real Mignola touches; really odd things that have big plot roles but don't play a huge part in the narrative. Yet they're so unusual and realised in such a way that they imply a whole lot about the world that you're only getting a glimpse of.
I think the books often do pile it on though; you'll get Rasputin and Ilsa and Kronen (who are insane characters as it is) and they'll try and harness some obscure creature to control to Ogdru Jahad again, via some arcane magics which Baba Yaga will try and stop or something. Then the BPRD get involved and they stumble onto a lot of nazi ghosts and a gorilla with someone elses brain, and then guy who's just a head shows up. Then the Aliens get involved to keep the Ogdru where they are, while Abe has to contend with an army chimps or something, while the fairies and leprechauns conspire to thwart Raputin's magic
And then Hecate shows up.
And giant caterpillar attacks.
And explosions.
As they say in New York; oy vey, what next.
I tried to read as many as I could before the first film (and I'd read a few in the comic days ages ago). While I admire the style and the imagination, I generally find the stories awkward and hard to connect with (which I also admire in a way, since they're very non traditional as far as late 20th century stuff goes and more traditional, like fairy tales). So, perhaps sadly, the films sort of showed me how to take it; "Oh, It's Dan Dare, Doc Savage, Flash Gordon. Now I get it". This is probably anathema to anyone who was perfectly happy with the books long before the films came along.
There's really only one Hellboy story I unreservedly love in and of itself and that's 'Box Full of Evil', which works because it's quite small and has a couple of really well drawn villains. It'd make a great hour of telly.
Re: the score. Yeah I more or less agree. I did find Beltrami a bit leaden in the first and thought he could stand to be a bit brighter and more upbeat in places. Elfman does that, of course, but then pushes it too far into distracting. Somewhere between the two would have suited me, I think.
Thirith on 16/12/2008 at 09:06
I'd very much agree with Angel Dust. I wanted to like both Hellboy films, and I do love how imaginative they are - especially the second one has some absolutely amazing creatures and locations - but they are so much more cartoony than the comics. In spite of the piling-on of things (you're definitely right about that, Muzman), the comics have something very laconic to them, the later ones more so than the first two or three. The films are way too noisy to capture the mood of Mignola's books for me.
I think I'd like both films better if the sound was switched off; the lines in Hellboy 2 were often painfully bad.
the_grip on 16/12/2008 at 15:43
I loved this flick and the first... my only complaint was that Hellboy had too few one-liners. Although there were a few gooders:
"You will pay for killing my friend."
H: "You take checks?"
"My body is a temple."
H: "Well now it is an amusement park."
