fett on 25/3/2010 at 14:41
Quote Posted by Muzman
Perhaps coincidentally, it all seems to stem from the rise of evangelical christianity, also in the '30s. But it's likely too simple to lay it all on that.
I just spent the weekend with a slew of evangelical family members, parents, brothers, etc. They go to different churches and live in various economic conditions, but the one thing I found them all to have in common was Christianity, but even more significant IMO - they get their news exclusively from Fox. They are all 100% convinced that this is the beginning of socialism in America (despite my explanation that "socialism" and "communism" are two different things, and that America already has a "socialist" road, school, and utility system in place). They are 100% convinced that Congress took an enormous pay raise this year and cut Social Security (neither is true). They are 100% convinced that they won't be able to choose their doctor by 2012, despite the fact that they all have great group insurance through their employer (two are federal employees who are ALREADY using Medicaid/Tri-care).
Where do you even begin with people like this? Despite repeated demonstrations that their news sources are faulty, they won't look elsewhere for information. Even if I show them that they're mistaken about these issues, in two months they'll be right back raging about them as if the conversation never happened.
I see a common thread among tea baggers - and forgive me for generalizing, this is just my experience living in the Bible Belt. They are usually middle-class, white, retired or near-retired folk who feel that they've been cheated. Most of them have a decent house, drive a reliable car, have a savings account, etc. Many lost money in the recession in late 2008/early 2009 - which is where the bitterness seems to find its root. Obama came into office in 2009 and it gave them a "black" president to blame for everything. They think illegals are destroying the schools, don't want to learn English (have you ever tried? English is the most fucked up language in history - you can't learn it in a year...), and that the "liberals" want us to "pay for abortions" (which we were doing under Bush anyway). They're convinced that Obama is weak on defense and a patsy in the Middle East, despite the fact that liberals wish he'd move more quickly to get out of Iraq, and little other tangible change has taken place in regards to the conflict.
Where did they get these ideas? It's almost cliche, but they all watch Hannity, Beck, O'Rieley. I think we've severely underestimated the influence of Fox News on this segment of the population. Fox has found it's niche audience and there's a grassroots movement to make everything government says or does, suspect or corrupt.
The real idiocy is that they've convinced the teabaggers that because the Democrats are wrong, the Republicans must be right, which of course allows everyone to ignore the obvious and inherent problems of a two-party system. Red or Blue? Red or Blue? I'm astounded that otherwise intelligent people fall for this in such mass numbers. Talking to them does no good. Exposing the agenda of their news sources is useless. I don't even know how to communicate with them anymore, and frankly, it's not fucking worth it.
witherflower on 25/3/2010 at 15:11
Quote Posted by fett
Where do you even begin with people like this? Despite repeated demonstrations that their news sources are faulty, they won't look elsewhere for information. Even if I show them that they're mistaken about these issues, in two months they'll be right back raging about them as if the conversation never happened.
Could be as simple as being in the habit of following that external allmighty voice of reason.
The only way to get through is to break their tv-signal recievers and camp in their livingrooms
with multiple volumes of reference material.
But even if you were able to get through, they'd just end up following you.
This is a very interesting question. How do you teach people to think for themselves? Or rather,
trust themselves enough to figure things out on their own.
I've even seen evidence of this same principle on various social networks where people blindly
follow anothers status which is loaded with false information. I mean we're sitting there online
and with access to a vast depository of information and we can't be bothered to cross check before submitting to a false claim. Impressive stuff.
demagogue on 25/3/2010 at 16:37
What fett just described, for the uninitiated, is pretty much *dead-on* for that group. If you've had any contact with them (I'm from Texas, so it's impossible not to), you know pretty much exactly how their mind works and what's funny to me, you can *see* their rage building miles in advance, almost better than they can, and still have nothing to say because any argument to the contrary can only be out of hostile intention. And you can see how Fox and the FW: FW: SO TRUE!! emails are the fuel that keeps them burning, and how impotent something like factcheck.org is to counter it (for one thing, too many words!). They get a few talking points in their head and it's impossible to put a dint in it. (Retired, trading emails & watching t.v. all day long, eating too much, media purists, very proud Americans, really sick of the Mexicans in the neighborhood, or just the idea of Mexicans out there trying to live respectable lives).
What surprises me is someone like my mother, whose background would make you think she *should* fall in this crowd, but somewhere along the road her mind turned and she's now a profound misfit among her friends & in her setting, voting for Obama, a Fox hater, constantly complaining about her friends' rightwing emails, pro-healthcare, anti-Iraq war. When I ask her, she sometimes says it was from talking with me (after I went to NYU & started hammering out my own politics; not that I moved so far Left as much as I became a lot more free-thinking, independent, & receptive to Democratic arguments... Well, I was always pretty free-thinking, but I guess I talked to her more about politics after then) ... And apparently I have a better way of explaining things so she can understand them or something, so now she can't watch Fox without getting upset that it sounds wrong (but she still worries about how to explain *why* it's wrong to her fanatical friends). It was also over the Bush II years, which really turned her off from the Right for what should be obvious reasons.
I wouldn't call her "liberal", since on the actual issues she's still pretty moderate, right-center IMO. Anyway, I think of her as *the* model for how you take someone from that background and turn them into reasonable, moderate people you can actually talk to. I just wish I knew exactly what it was that enlightened her, and why her and not others in her position that just take the Fox bait and drink the koolaid, to mix a metaphor.
fett on 25/3/2010 at 17:46
What's crazy is that my parents were dyed-in-the-wool Democrats until Obama won the Dem ticket. I think the fact that they couldn't hate him just because he was "black" drove them to Fox News, where they were given plenty of other reasons. It's like when you watch O'Rieleielely and can tell after a few minutes that he's a raging racist. It's thinly veiled behind a curtain of ridiculous objections to policies and D.C. going's on that they really don't even understand. I fear that's actually part of the root of their mindset as well.
AR Master on 25/3/2010 at 17:58
i also hate how people who aren't as enlightened as i am disagree with me and believe things i disapprove of
edit: it just makes me so mad!!!!!!!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
scumble on 25/3/2010 at 18:41
Quote Posted by fett
Where do you even begin with people like this? Despite repeated demonstrations that their news sources are faulty, they won't look elsewhere for information. Even if I show them that they're mistaken about these issues, in two months they'll be right back raging about them as if the conversation never happened.
It's interesting to hear your first-hand experience of this. Personally I think there is a bit more going on than the surface "These people are shallow fools" - they are actually quite useful shallow fools for deflecting rage towards this healthcare bill rather than the relatively larger sums of money poured into the black hole in the banking system. Fox appears to be feeding misinformation in a sort of directed way, and the whole scheme appears to bank on this sector of people held in ignorance not bothering to look up some alternative sources, as you say - is it a case of just following the money? On the other hand, that may not hold up entirely since a lot of heath insurers are suddenly going to get a lot of extra business, so the hordes of rabid fox viewers would have done them out of a fair few quid.
It's these strings being tugged behind the scenes that make change an arduous process. I'd love to see things move on to tackling the obscene costs in US healthcare, but I'm a tad pessimistic, like I'm pessimistic about the NHS holding up under its bureaucratic stress.
Hopefully this post made some sort of sense...
june gloom on 25/3/2010 at 19:25
demagogue's description of his mother is like the reverse of my own. My mother is an intelligent woman who single-handedly built one of the most successful apraxia education programs in the country- she's an excellent teacher and comes from a strong, equally intelligent and successful family.
But when it comes to anything that is not teaching, she is every bit the screaming neocon stereotype. She once told me evolution was invented by communists to destroy God. I don't even fucking know what to say to that.
Bluegrime on 25/3/2010 at 20:58
Quote:
I don't even fucking know what to say to that.
Tell her "get ready to suck cock, cock sucker".
In all seriousness though, I hate me some fucking health insurance companies. Anything that drives off their ability to hold your health at ransom is good news for society. A company that charges you until the moment you need them and then either drops/disputes your claim is unacceptable. One that does that with peoples health and lives? That's just plain old gruesome.
Gingerbread Man on 25/3/2010 at 22:44
I like the Chinese way of paying your doctor every month unless you get sick. It's his job to keep you healthy, so you pay him while you are. If you get sick then that means he must have fucked up, so he's got to do his job and fix you for free.
Of course, that's absolutely socialist. And fuck the Chinese. Probably putting melamine in the eyedrops and twenty minutes later you need more. Americans demand something more rugged, more Wild West, more seat-of-the-pants! Let's GAMBLE against our health! Except that the way to win is to get horribly ill! And you don't actually win anything, per se... and you have to pay a fee regardless, and it'll get more expensive after you win... and ... fuck's sake... can I just shoot everyone right now? I promise I'll try to make it quick and painless, I'm sure after a few dozen I'll have it down cold. No one will feel any pain. Please? Just let me shoot a couple million motherfuckers. Come on.
AR Master on 25/3/2010 at 23:12
Quote Posted by Bluegrime
Tell her "get ready to suck cock, cock sucker".
In all seriousness though, I hate me some fucking health insurance companies. Anything that drives off their ability to hold your health at ransom is good news for society. A company that charges you until the moment you need them and then either drops/disputes your claim is unacceptable. One that does that with peoples health and lives? That's just plain old gruesome.
so now you buy either from one of these FASCIST PROFIT DRIVEN KKKAPITALIST insurance companies or from the government, so whether or not you receive care (and live or die) depends on if funding for that care is authorized by one of two people:
1. A faceless government bureaucrat who doesn't give a fuck either way.
2. An insurance company rep who is motivated by profit.
